R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-16-2015, 01:19 AM   #16
Tech Elite
 
Skiddins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Windsor, UK
Posts: 4,705
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush View Post
Except for the fastest guy here

I like it. It is challenging to set-up, but good once it gets going.

One issue that I found is that the ARS makes the rear really narrow on the XRAY, so I have found that adding shims to widen track width between the wheel and the hex helps make the car much better. The car seems to just roll too much when set up very narrow.

Personally I have it set up to where it has close to Zero toe gain/loss. I like it because I can set my car to have exact rear toe and I can also use fine increments of it. However the Toe gain/loss made the car inconsistent. I set the pills at max width RF and 0.5 in on the RR. The rest of the toe I add with the turnbuckles. I go between 2.25 and 2.5 degrees of rear toe most of the time and also have a 0.5mm shim raising the RR and RF Suspension mounts from the center pill position. (Also helps control rear toe)

Now does it make the car better or worse? Both. Set up correctly is a nice addition that can simplify the rear end adjustment and unlock unlimited rear toe settings. When set up wrong, as Syndrome stated, can make the car feel like its broken.
If you have a situation where you've set it up to give almost no toe change, isn't the standard rear setup preferable as it will also be lighter?
__________________
Xray T4'18, T4'14 (Wet Car)
Xray X12 2018
Xray X1'16
wlrc.co.uk (West London Racing Centre)
RCDisco.co.uk
Skiddins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 01:31 AM   #17
Tech Elite
 
Lonestar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,344
Trader Rating: 13 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiddins View Post
If you have a situation where you've set it up to give almost no toe change, isn't the standard rear setup preferable as it will also be lighter?
xtian... my thoughts too... plus the lesser complexity / risk of stuff coming loose / risk of unsettled geometry after a hit?

Thanks!
Paul
__________________
When the flag drops, the BS stops.

The train stops at the train station. The bus stops at the bus station. In my office I have a workstation.
Lonestar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 01:48 AM   #18
Tech Fanatic
 
Geberit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 756
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiddins View Post
If you have a situation where you've set it up to give almost no toe change, isn't the standard rear setup preferable as it will also be lighter?
I thought that also.

On another note, I heard some drivers talking about setting the ARS neutral is not the same as the standard hub configuration. One of the reasons is that the rigidness of the whole construction is not the same ...
Geberit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 07:46 AM   #19
Tech Lord
 
syndr0me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 13,125
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

Even set to neutral it unhinges the rear of the car more than the static rear. As others have mentioned, I wonder how much of that is the additional weight over the rear of the car. I might try it again in neutral with the battery moved forward.
syndr0me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 08:53 AM   #20
Tech Elite
 
CristianTabush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,817
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiddins View Post
If you have a situation where you've set it up to give almost no toe change, isn't the standard rear setup preferable as it will also be lighter?
Each rear end has it's advantages. I enjoy having adjustable rear toe angles as well as a shorter rear arm. The car rotates better and returns to center quicker.

I think the weight difference is not a big issue and I find myself going quite fast with the ARS. Most people here say they don't like it because it makes their car hard to drive or inconsistent. Then they drive my car and they say it is super stable and easy to drive, so go figure.

I have yet to lose a single part on the ARS, although 1 time one of the inside posts got a little loose on me and the car got a bit edgy. As for geometry changing with hits, you can technically argue for that with any rear end. Being an XRAY the car takes much bigger hits like a champ. I am not concerned about being hit or hitting things, it just does not happen enough to allow for it to be something I am concerned about.

Syndrome, I do run my battery all the way forward with plugs back. The rear hub shims are key though, otherwise the car is a handful. 0.5mm on each side with med grip, 1.0mm when the grip comes up to med high- high.
__________________
REFLEX RACING/ RSD/ GIZMO RACING USA/ HOBBYWING/ AXON/ QTEQ/ TEAM PRIME
CristianTabush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 09:11 AM   #21
Team EAM
 
EAMotorsports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 9,113
Trader Rating: 79 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to EAMotorsports
Default

I have one car with it and one car without it. Both are fast and easy to drive. ARS has potential. The difference is finding a setup that fits your driving style with it. I dont think you can be a saw on the wheel with ars setup too aggressively. You will have to be smoother. If your a ratchet on the wheel your probably going to hate it until you spend some time with it and set it up to your driving style.

The quickest way to calm it down is just add a little more rear toe than you normally run or widen the rear as Cristian posted. Both of those will make it more stable.

EA
__________________
Contact Us
Team EAM, Our Facebook
Xray | RCAmerica | Hudy | Apex RC | RC Mission | Killer Concepts | AVID | Hobbywing.
EAMotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 09:12 AM   #22
Tech Master
 
locked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,758
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Hub shims eh? Maybe I'll give ARS another chance on carpet and try that out. I didn't really give it a fair chance. Tried a few settings and it just didn't feel good. Varied between weird and awful, so I removed it.
__________________
Dave Locke
Team PerformanceHobbies.ca | ORCA RC | Bodies by Brandon | Team Meeting
XRAY T4'15 x2 | XRAY XB4 | XRAY XB8E | XRAY XB8
locked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 09:28 AM   #23
Tech Lord
 
syndr0me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 13,125
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

When you say rear hub shims, are you talking about the shims on the rear steering knuckle where the toe link attaches?

Also, on the Xray, what is the most neutral setting?

I plan on giving it another try as well, I think I was hasty to take it off because it felt so bad, even after testing a few different shim combinations.
syndr0me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 09:31 AM   #24
Tech Lord
 
syndr0me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 13,125
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

.

Last edited by syndr0me; 01-16-2015 at 09:32 AM. Reason: dupe
syndr0me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 09:33 AM   #25
Tech Elite
 
CristianTabush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,817
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
I have one car with it and one car without it. Both are fast and easy to drive. ARS has potential. The difference is finding a setup that fits your driving style with it. I dont think you can be a saw on the wheel with ars setup too aggressively. You will have to be smoother. If your a ratchet on the wheel your probably going to hate it until you spend some time with it and set it up to your driving style.

The quickest way to calm it down is just add a little more rear toe than you normally run or widen the rear as Cristian posted. Both of those will make it more stable.

EA
My car is set up to what I thinks is be driven super aggressively, or at least I think it is. What the car does do more is the rolling in the rear seems to be more abrupt which can make it challenging to drive until you get it to stop rolling too much. The narrow rear has an incredible amount of lateral weight transfer which creates an excessive amount of roll on higher grip surfaces. From testing, you tame this out and the car just starts getting better and better.

I do need to test with the regular rear just to feel the difference as I have not in a while. For all I know it might be way faster :P
__________________
REFLEX RACING/ RSD/ GIZMO RACING USA/ HOBBYWING/ AXON/ QTEQ/ TEAM PRIME
CristianTabush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 09:36 AM   #26
Tech Elite
 
CristianTabush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,817
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
When you say rear hub shims, are you talking about the shims on the rear steering knuckle where the toe link attaches?

Also, on the Xray, what is the most neutral setting?

I plan on giving it another try as well, I think I was hasty to take it off because it felt so bad, even after testing a few different shim combinations.
Hex spacers. To make the track width wider. Like in between the wheel and the hex.

The ars arms are like 2mm shorter, so when you build you car with it, it's like at 183-184mm in the rear. IMO, this is far too narrow. Widen the rear about 1-2mm and the car is back to more "standard" rear widths, which make the car way better.

The most neutral setting I think is no shims on the inside and maybe none on the outside? I run an aluminum chassis so it's a slight bit different. Best thing to do is put it on a set up station and cycle the suspension.
__________________
REFLEX RACING/ RSD/ GIZMO RACING USA/ HOBBYWING/ AXON/ QTEQ/ TEAM PRIME
CristianTabush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 10:17 AM   #27
Tech Regular
 
Barry_Hughes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ipswich, England
Posts: 432
Default

I must be totally different to everyone else then! Tried it on my T4-15 on low to med grip carpet and couldn't really get on with it till I mounted the ball stud above the arm and added 4mm shims inboard. Set the static toe to 1 degree and with this set up it gives between 3 to 3.5 degrees max toe under compression and the car was better and I felt I could push it more.
This running 13.5 blinky.

However I have put the Alu chassis on the car and may go back to the std set up without the ARS
__________________
Built it !
Raced it !
Wrecked it !
Barry_Hughes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 01:27 PM   #28
Tech Elite
 
artwork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Thornton, CO
Posts: 3,104
Trader Rating: 61 (100%+)
Default

Ultimately the question was...is it faster?

That all depends on your version of faster. Is it easier to hot lap with ARS on, yeah I think so but the car is a bit harder to drive because the rear rotates a bit better. But on a lot of setups this can be the kiss of death and make the car way harder to drive.

For me personally I have found that ARS makes me slower overall over the course of a five minute run on medium/high bite carpet. I personally have found that the consistency of the standard rear end makes me faster over a five minute run.

I would say that ARS requires quite a bit of tuning and may be better on some surfaces than other.

Also, the tires you are running can have a direct impact on weather ARS may work better or not. If you are running tires that produce a lot of grip (sorex) and are very balanced than ARS may be a good option. But if you are running tires like Jaco that are more prone to grip/release than ARS could make your life a living hell.

It really comes down to the balance you have in your car and to consider how ARS may impact that overall balance.

I would say as grip comes up ARS becomes more useful especially if the increased grip seems to lock in the rear of the car.

It is still pretty early in the life cycle of ARS/ATS on the traditional touring cars, so time will play a significant role in finding the right settings for each platform.

I see ARS as a tuning option based on the track conditions and do not think it is a one size fits all kind of setup.
__________________
Sanwa | R1 Wurks | Avid | 2mm Designs
artwork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 03:05 PM   #29
Tech Elite
 
Skiddins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Windsor, UK
Posts: 4,705
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush View Post
Each rear end has it's advantages. I enjoy having adjustable rear toe angles as well as a shorter rear arm. The car rotates better and returns to center quicker.

I think the weight difference is not a big issue and I find myself going quite fast with the ARS. Most people here say they don't like it because it makes their car hard to drive or inconsistent. Then they drive my car and they say it is super stable and easy to drive, so go figure.

I have yet to lose a single part on the ARS, although 1 time one of the inside posts got a little loose on me and the car got a bit edgy. As for geometry changing with hits, you can technically argue for that with any rear end. Being an XRAY the car takes much bigger hits like a champ. I am not concerned about being hit or hitting things, it just does not happen enough to allow for it to be something I am concerned about.

Syndrome, I do run my battery all the way forward with plugs back. The rear hub shims are key though, otherwise the car is a handful. 0.5mm on each side with med grip, 1.0mm when the grip comes up to med high- high.
Ok, care to tell us what shims you're running?

I confess I have only run it a few times. One week at a medium grip carpet track, couldn't really tell much difference. Then once outdoors at my home track where grip was low, tried extreme shim changes but nothing really made much difference (grip was too low to effect it I think)
Once in the practice round at a big meeting (EWS) where the car did feel loose, I did remove it for the first round where the car was much better, but by them grip had also come up.

Perhaps if I'd known that it reduces the track width I could have made other changes to test it more effectively.
__________________
Xray T4'18, T4'14 (Wet Car)
Xray X12 2018
Xray X1'16
wlrc.co.uk (West London Racing Centre)
RCDisco.co.uk
Skiddins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2015, 03:23 PM   #30
Tech Fanatic
 
vabroom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: dark side of the moon
Posts: 936
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush View Post
Hex spacers. To make the track width wider. Like in between the wheel and the hex.

The ars arms are like 2mm shorter, so when you build you car with it, it's like at 183-184mm in the rear. IMO, this is far too narrow. Widen the rear about 1-2mm and the car is back to more "standard" rear widths, which make the car way better.

The most neutral setting I think is no shims on the inside and maybe none on the outside? I run an aluminum chassis so it's a slight bit different. Best thing to do is put it on a set up station and cycle the suspension.
Cristian, would using offset hexes help widen the rear track or would it be too wide?
__________________
RC racing is still trying to prove that two solid objects can be in the same place, at the same time.
vabroom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 02:59 AM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net