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Old 04-18-2016, 09:04 PM   #451
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I got my RSD V2 12th last week and started working on transferring my components from my XRAY. Ran into a few problems and uncertainties which Cristian cleared up for me. Most of them is due to the car is not fully released yet and everything is built in house. It wasnt clear how the servos were installed, or the ride height adjusted. Also being a pre-built car and me buying a conversion, it wasnt clear what was needed or included to make a complete car. Hopefully when the kit is fully released all these confusion will be cleared up.

One problem I ran into tho was the plate that holds the servo and keeps the battery in place in the inline position. It seems like the standoff used to elevate that plate was too tall and it clears the battery. Also with just the servo mount installed, it wouldnt fit in either servo positions on the plate. The rear position hits the standoff, the front position hits the front damper.





The standoff that came with the car was 20mm and seem too tall. I fixed it by using some 15mm motherboard standoffs for now to correctly set the height for a mini servo to fit and securely holds the battery in place. As you can see I also used a motherboard standoff for the shock mount so it would be more laid down instead of an upright position. Also Cristian advised me to add spacers between the servo horn and servo mount so it would fit into one of the mounting position.



Heres the completed car. I cant wait to hit the tracks once the skies let up and stop dumping rain on us.

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Old 04-18-2016, 09:50 PM   #452
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You can also run the servo in the front mounting slots if you move the damper to the front of the arms and remove the droop plate. To set droop, just use the extra holes in the arms and use a long set screw. It is an option on the car. The red arrows in the pic shows where to put the long set screws for droop adjustment. You will also have to shorten the damper tube. Switch out whatever extender is on the tube and replace it with a 2mm shim. The damper tube is raised up 1mm off the arm. It's just an option to play with if you want. But it should give you better ackermann adjustments with the damper tube out of the way.

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Old 04-18-2016, 10:03 PM   #453
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Thanks Jimm. Right now the setup work, but if needed, its good to know the location of the damper tube can be moved.
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Old 04-19-2016, 01:56 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by bdmpastx View Post
Yeah he is driving back so it may be a while.
I was driving mine and it was fantastic. On my best run of the weekend, I was all set to qualify for the B but I rolled it after clipping the rail on the last lap and the corner assumed my race was over and it cost me my extra lap dropping me into the C. I ended up winning the C main...Oh well, it happens. I used JFT Dark blue fronts, glued on the outside and JFT pink rears. I sauced the tires 10 races before mine and wiped them 5 races in until they were almost dry. It was really dialed. I was running an older D4 13.5 I bought over a year ago and it couldn't keep up with the A main drivers with Motiv and Ready motors. I am just doing this for the hobby (fun of it) and I really don't spend a lot so I wasn't prepared to buy the motor of the month. I may have been down on power but it didn't ruin my weekend of fun.

As for the setup, I was running 3.4mm ride height, adjusted the springs to give me that height on the front, then adjusted the droop screws until it moved, then added a 1/4 turn of preload to it. So no droop. The rear was the same with about .5-.8mm of droop. This track is so smooth and the rear end of this car was stuck and the suspension seemed to like this. Our home track (RSD) is really bumpy in places and there is no way I could get by doing this there. The glue on the front was absolutely necessary on the black carpet. Either that or cut 1 run tires at 38.3mm. They both felt the same so I opted to go bigger at 39mm and glue to get more runs on them.

A lot of us in Texas have not been able to run on the black carpet, in fact almost all of us. Cristian and I only did it once up in Dallas at Banana so it was a leaning experience and we both walked away with more knowledge.

There off the top of my head, there were 6 RR12s there. There may have been one more.
Thanks for the info, what springs and shock oil did you use and did you change those for this track? Like you I'm just in the hobby for fun not a career and I may never get to run on the new carpet at all. But would be nice to have a baseline setup if I ever do.
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:02 PM   #455
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I used associated 350wt on the team prime shock with the red associated spring and up front I had Yokomo hard springs that he gives in the kit. I use the same thing on our track.
Cristian used the same but changed the spring to the Associated Gold and moved the shock and upper pod back a set of holes.
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Old 04-19-2016, 09:16 PM   #456
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Thanks for the additional info.
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:21 AM   #457
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RR12T2 is awesome performance. I tested some of parts last Saturday.
Stable, consistency, durable, and light weight.

This car is Cristian's

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Old 05-15-2016, 09:03 PM   #458
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So Ive had some time with the V2 on asphalt and I have to say, handling out of the box was quite a handful and a lot of trial and error before I can tame the car.

What I was experiencing with the car so far are:

MASSIVE low speed steering. The car literally had a turning radius of a dim. I would oversteer in every low speed corner. This lead me to turn my dual rate all the way down to make the car drivable

The car had no high speed corner. Due to me turning down the dual rate, the car wouldnt turn at the end of the straight. I had to make a compromise and dial back some dual rate just so I can barely make the sweeper at the end of the straight.

The step in the front bumper and main chassis setup made it EXTREMELY EASY to chip the chassis. I need to 3D print a plastic "ramp" so instead of nailing the main chassis, it would glide over it. Something to think about in the future.

The spring preload adjustment would vibrate loose during a run and screw up the setup. Threadlocker must be used.

Setting the car wasnt as easy as I thought as well due to the unique double wishbone front suspension and the the rear pod spring location. It took some tinkering before it became driveable but far from perfect.

Things I did:
Tighten the rear diff
Widen the rear track
Used stiffer rear pod springs
Used 5 degree active caster
most caster I can get
stiffened the front suspension by preloading the springs and adjusting the downstop

The car did not turn on a dim anymore and it was more controllable. But I still do not feel confident pushing the car. More work needs to be done and experiment with the setup.
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Old 05-16-2016, 10:03 AM   #459
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What are your droop settings for the front? Are you aware that pre-loading a spring does not make the spring stiffer? Pre load should be used to set ride height. If you use pre load and down stop to "adjust" front stiffness you are just binding the suspension up.

If you want to increase roll stiffness, raise the lower balls at the front arms 1-2mm depending on feel and/or use a stiffer front spring. The carbon cars came with AE 0.024 springs, the next step up is the yokomo R12 black spring and subsequent rates from the yokomo. Most guys run the 0.024 with a higher roll center (raising the lower arms by way of the ball) or yokomo black with std (low) to medium roll center.

I will assume that you are running the correct traction additive and tire combination at your local track. But it goes without saying, this is super important.

Also, how are you setting your steering end points? We consider 100% dual rate a 4ft circle. I usually set my car's end points to do 4ft circles and then I back off to 70% as a starting point.

The spring on the V2 on the center could be too stiff for asphalt. I am not sure, since I have not run one, but one of our team driver says he's running out yellow (softest) center spring and he likes it. Last year, with the V1, we ran the green, so it makes sense that it needs to be softened to me. More pod droop always helped as well.

Ultimately though, asphalt is relatively low on grip. Tires are more important here than on carpet. If a car has crazy oversteer, it usually means that the front tire is too grippy in relationship to the rear. The V2 has the balance of grip biased towards the rear slightly so to me it sounds like a tire/droop/roll center setting issue.
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Old 05-16-2016, 06:29 PM   #460
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My experiences racing 1/12th on asphalt.

Start off with a relatively safe setup. By "safe" I mean a soft setup that is manageable with slight a understeer. Everything you've done is the opposite. We'll get you back on track.

A starting setup that I found worked for me.

Center spring - Associated Blue spring or equivalent. Try running the softest spring possible and work from there. Hardest I've gone is Associated Gold.

Center damper oil - 400 CST

Side springs - Once again try something soft, like Associated Black or equivalent. Try going to Olive.

Side tubes - 10K

Front springs - try the kit springs and work from there.

Dynamic caster should be 10 degrees. Very rarely would you run 5 degrees on asphalt.

Front droop 0.5 mm, rear droop 1.5, pod droop 0.4 mm.

Camber -1.5 and toe out at 1 degree.

Upper and lower arm geometry should allow for a lot of camber gain. Cristian can assist you will those settings.

As mentioned before, pre-loading does not increase the spring rate. It only increases the ride height and removes droop.

Tightening the differential isn't the best idea either for low grip. I would loosen it off until it doesn't slip under load.

The V2 looks like a killer car, I just don't think you were going in the right direction with the setup.

Not to worry, it's all good. We've all been there.
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Old 05-16-2016, 06:52 PM   #461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush View Post
What are your droop settings for the front? Are you aware that pre-loading a spring does not make the spring stiffer? Pre load should be used to set ride height. If you use pre load and down stop to "adjust" front stiffness you are just binding the suspension up.

If you want to increase roll stiffness, raise the lower balls at the front arms 1-2mm depending on feel and/or use a stiffer front spring. The carbon cars came with AE 0.024 springs, the next step up is the yokomo R12 black spring and subsequent rates from the yokomo. Most guys run the 0.024 with a higher roll center (raising the lower arms by way of the ball) or yokomo black with std (low) to medium roll center.

I will assume that you are running the correct traction additive and tire combination at your local track. But it goes without saying, this is super important.

Also, how are you setting your steering end points? We consider 100% dual rate a 4ft circle. I usually set my car's end points to do 4ft circles and then I back off to 70% as a starting point.

The spring on the V2 on the center could be too stiff for asphalt. I am not sure, since I have not run one, but one of our team driver says he's running out yellow (softest) center spring and he likes it. Last year, with the V1, we ran the green, so it makes sense that it needs to be softened to me. More pod droop always helped as well.

Ultimately though, asphalt is relatively low on grip. Tires are more important here than on carpet. If a car has crazy oversteer, it usually means that the front tire is too grippy in relationship to the rear. The V2 has the balance of grip biased towards the rear slightly so to me it sounds like a tire/droop/roll center setting issue.
Yes Im aware that the preloading the spring doesnt make it stiffer, I guess what I was trying to say is, during that particular track day, I noticed the car's handling changed halfway through the pack and I realized the spring reload thumb screw adjustment thing backed out and I didnt have any threadlock with me and I had to preload the front end to make it "stiffer" just so I can finish my track session that day. I usually run around 1-2mm droop in the front end. Ill try the suggested front springs and see if that helps. What is the recommended spacer thickness high, med, low roll center, or its all going by feel?

Im using the stock spring that came with the Team Prime shock, not really sure how hard/soft it is as your website did not mention what spring it came with. What other brand of spring would work with the Team Prime shock? Would like see if I could find some locally, if not, since you will be sending me some replacement parts for my V2, can you ship the springs with the replacement parts if I buy it from you?

For my steering end points, I usually set it so that the steering linkage just clears the wheel then subject to track layout and conditions I backed off my dual to suit. Right now I have it set to around 60%. Im not sure what the turning radius is for 100%, but im sure its within 2ft. Lemme measure it tonight.

Tires are one thing that Im still experimenting with. Im using the Paragon Ground Effect tracking compound that Ive been using for years and it worked pretty well with asphalt.
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Old 05-17-2016, 08:32 AM   #462
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Ok, so droop settings are definitely where you need to start. You should never have to run more than about 0.5mm of droop in the front end. The spring adjusters, we usually just use thick grease on the threads to keep them from losing adjustment, but on asphalt, threadlock might be a better way to go.

I think you need to try the 4ft circle method, it is sort of the "standard" way of setting steering on a 12th scale.

For tires, I would try starting with a rubber based foam like a magenta or pink in the rear with a double pink or team purple (lilac)/ purple in the front. Ground effects is a good additive, try adding a tiny bit of Nivea hand cream (a tiny bit) or coppertone SPF 30 after the Ground effects to make the sauce last a bit longer. Rub it into the tire after applying the Paragon.

For center spring, the forward shock position requires stiffer springs than a car with more rear shock bias. For example, on the V2, we run AE Gold/ AE Red, on a car with more rearward shock position, you don't want to go stiffer than an AE blue/ RSD purple. Use 1-2mm of pod droop to get better forward drive.
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:15 AM   #463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDWARD2003 View Post
My experiences racing 1/12th on asphalt.

Start off with a relatively safe setup. By "safe" I mean a soft setup that is manageable with slight a understeer. Everything you've done is the opposite. We'll get you back on track.

A starting setup that I found worked for me.

Center spring - Associated Blue spring or equivalent. Try running the softest spring possible and work from there. Hardest I've gone is Associated Gold.

Center damper oil - 400 CST

Side springs - Once again try something soft, like Associated Black or equivalent. Try going to Olive.

Side tubes - 10K

Front springs - try the kit springs and work from there.

Dynamic caster should be 10 degrees. Very rarely would you run 5 degrees on asphalt.

Front droop 0.5 mm, rear droop 1.5, pod droop 0.4 mm.

Camber -1.5 and toe out at 1 degree.

Upper and lower arm geometry should allow for a lot of camber gain. Cristian can assist you will those settings.

As mentioned before, pre-loading does not increase the spring rate. It only increases the ride height and removes droop.

Tightening the differential isn't the best idea either for low grip. I would loosen it off until it doesn't slip under load.

The V2 looks like a killer car, I just don't think you were going in the right direction with the setup.

Not to worry, it's all good. We've all been there.
Hey Edward, Sorry I didnt notice your message, I only saw Cristians.

To reply to, I know my setup is far from great, and probably not very logical, but it worked for me in order to get the car back under control and stop spinning out uncontrollably. Like I said, the car have way too much low speed corning grip and respond but is very lazy and understeered during the high speed sweeper. What Im doing is to reduce steering and allowing me to finish a lap without me driving straight into a wall or spin uncontrollably during the tight sections.

From my experience and from what Ive read, going to a softer front spring would only introduce more steering, not less. For example, I was using the stock Xray front springs on my old X12 and it had way too much understeer. I changed to the softer Ride medium spring and it helped with more turn in. My LightningF before had way too much understeer with the stock medium springs, using the Ride soft spring allowed for a lot more steering.

Loosening up the rear diff also had the same effect. It diffs out too easily out of every corner, causing the car to spin. Tightening the diff helped a lot in keeping the car from spinning and diffing out.

As for the rest of the setup:

I THINK Im using a similar damper oil in my shock. 350CST
Center spring, as mentioned, am using the stock spring that came with the Team Prime shock.
Side tubes Im running 15k
The dynamic caster isnt something that can be adjusted, and to be honest, Im only guessing the angle as there are no indication nor manual as to what the stock kit comes with. Its either flat or angled. As per the setup guide book from xray, you want to less active caster if you want less corning, and more if steering is needed.
Camber is set so my tires wear evenly
I keep zero toe or very little toe in as toe out only leads to more steering, which is what Im trying to prevent

Ill give Cristians suggesting a try and rise the roll center of the front end and see if that helped.

Also Cristian, Ive just measured my turning radius with the maximum allowable steering throw without having the wheel bind on the steering linkage and it is just over 2ft. So around 4.5ft or so if I turn my dual rate down to 60%
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:29 AM   #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush View Post
Ok, so droop settings are definitely where you need to start. You should never have to run more than about 0.5mm of droop in the front end. The spring adjusters, we usually just use thick grease on the threads to keep them from losing adjustment, but on asphalt, threadlock might be a better way to go.

I think you need to try the 4ft circle method, it is sort of the "standard" way of setting steering on a 12th scale.

For tires, I would try starting with a rubber based foam like a magenta or pink in the rear with a double pink or team purple (lilac)/ purple in the front. Ground effects is a good additive, try adding a tiny bit of Nivea hand cream (a tiny bit) or coppertone SPF 30 after the Ground effects to make the sauce last a bit longer. Rub it into the tire after applying the Paragon.

For center spring, the forward shock position requires stiffer springs than a car with more rear shock bias. For example, on the V2, we run AE Gold/ AE Red, on a car with more rearward shock position, you don't want to go stiffer than an AE blue/ RSD purple. Use 1-2mm of pod droop to get better forward drive.
Thanks Cristian, Ill give the 0.5mm droop setting another try.

Ill give your 4ft circle method a try as well, although I think I was pretty close after the dual rates and all.

In Hong Kong, I have a few tire choices to choose from. Ulti Tires, JFT, Matrix, Speedmind, Xceed and GQ. Most of the European foam tires dont have a color rating (pink, purple etc) but a shore rating. Typically local members use Front 35, rear 30 shore for asphalt racing. I was using the Ulti tires in the "X" compound which "matches carpet and low grip and works well with tire treatment" as per the website. They do offer "J" compound on their website but thats for " asphalt to all carpet and in the condition of an especially high grip." which my tracks arent. I do have some JFT tires designed for asphalt which I can try as well.

I heard of the lotion/sunscreen method for foam tires but never actually tried it. Ground Effect seems to work pretty good

Ill experiment with center springs, I take it that AE springs would work with the Team Prime shock?
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:54 AM   #465
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I think the droop is your biggest culprit here. The car is very sensitive to dropp changes. We can go from understeering to traction rolling by going from 0.4-1.0mm. I run .3-.5 almost everywhere. I would start at .5 on asphalt.

For the tires, the J compound Ulits is what you may want. The translation is broken english, so it reads out different that what they were supposed to mean. My friend explained to me that you run rubber on low grip, on asphalt and on high grip. The X compound is very reactive to the new odorless additive types like sticky fingers and sxt 3.0. It does not mean that it reacts well with all additives necessarily, although ground effects works on ANYTHING. Just some food for thought.

To really find out which tires would work best, I would suggest to buy to try out: 1 JM Rear 1 JS Rear 1 JM Front and 1 JH Front

I would start with JS rear (30 shore) and maybe J hard (38-40) front. If it is hotter, maybe a JM rear (32-35 shore) would work better, but you have to try to really find out. After you find out which rear tire works best, try the softer JM front to see if the car has better overall balance. If it does not, just go back to the J hard and start working on refining your set-up.

Springs, any spring from CRC/ AE/ Roche, etc should fit. There are only a few companies that use the larger springs, like yokomo and serpent.
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