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Old 11-13-2014, 10:17 AM   #76
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I think too, that faster guys don't take enough time out to really help the new guys that are struggling. With TC being the staple in onroad, setup can be overwhelming to a person that is just learning. It's impossible to get better if you're driving an ill handling car, fast or slow. What I don't get is, why slower motors for stock when there are slower classes, like VTA, that thrive? Truth is, this hobby isn't easy and requires patience. If you're not willing to work your way up, It will always bee too fast.
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Old 11-13-2014, 10:23 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post
Diff between 17 & 13/ mod at our track is about .5 - .8s
Same here but it's .2 to .5

With a 17.5T No timing and geared correctly I can hit laps in the 7.1 range

WIth a 13.5T No timing and geared correctly I can hit laps in the 6.8 range

With tire dope and timing on the 13.5T I can run down in the 6.4 to 6.5 range, but none of that is allowed at my track on race day.
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Old 11-13-2014, 10:25 AM   #78
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As it seems each track is individually tailoring their entry-level class structure to fit their unique demographic, does it really make sense to try and identify a Nation-wide structure? Should this instead be a forum for introducing ideas and providing narratives of what worked or did not work?

Maybe I speak for myself, but what I'm looking for is a gateway drug into onroad that eventually leads folks into the already established onroad classes. 17.5 is too fast for folks to jump right into (track size dependent of course), so a track should seek to find a sustainable entry-level alternative that is alignment with the interests of their consumer base. Do we have enough trust in the judgement of individual tracks to let them determine what is best for them to grow their onroad program in a steady and sustainable fashion? Some tracks are better than others at appealing to the newb - someone that's just looking for something FUN to do.
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Old 11-13-2014, 10:26 AM   #79
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What I don't get is, why slower motors for stock when there are slower classes, like VTA, that thrive? Truth is, this hobby isn't easy and requires patience. If you're not willing to work your way up, It will always bee too fast.
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Old 11-13-2014, 10:47 AM   #80
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I'm still having a tough time wrapping my head around this GT12 class. Do you also run 17.5 TC and 17.5 1/12th scale at your track? Where do these GT12 cars fall in line lap time wise between these two other classes?
They are a tad slower than the 17.5 12th in the infield because they are 200g heavier, they have less aerodynamic downforce and slightly less rear traction. They are about the same on the straight speed wise because they have more motor to compensate. They are not squirrely or twitchy at all. As far as TC, we run USGT and VTA. The GT12s are marginally quicker than the USGT cars though, mostly due to foam tires and being 500g lighter. There is not much interest in 17.5 TC here, which is odd being that it is the largest class in the country. There are a few that want to run it, but they never bring a car in to run the class. Honestly, the appeal is the side by side racing, overall durability of the GT12 class and cost. And, this is not a NEW class. We just don't know about it in the US.
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Old 11-13-2014, 01:39 PM   #81
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So from what I'm reading, we've all decided 17.5 blinky is too fast for beginners in on-road. So what's the answer? Slower cars, right?

Now I pose this question, Do we need to slow down the class formerly referred to as stock, or create a new, slower TC class?

Wait, don't we already have two slower TC classes already?

I'm not convinced that transitioning from 17.5 to 21.5 will add any new entries, or new racers. I think it will only dilute VTA and USGT. These two classes are exceptionally beginner friendly, and in most cases more appealing to potential racers because of their rule sets and scale looks.

21.5 TC would just be USGT with ugly lexan and dish wheels.
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Old 11-13-2014, 01:45 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post
Diff between 17 & 13/ mod at our track is about .5 - .8s
Yep that is a big lap time difference with what is probably a small track when mod can only use the additional power briefly on the strait.

Last edited by frozenpod; 11-13-2014 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 11-13-2014, 01:57 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
So from what I'm reading, we've all decided 17.5 blinky is too fast for beginners in on-road. So what's the answer? Slower cars, right?

Now I pose this question, Do we need to slow down the class formerly referred to as stock, or create a new, slower TC class?

Wait, don't we already have two slower TC classes already?

I'm not convinced that transitioning from 17.5 to 21.5 will add any new entries, or new racers. I think it will only dilute VTA and USGT. These two classes are exceptionally beginner friendly, and in most cases more appealing to potential racers because of their rule sets and scale looks.

21.5 TC would just be USGT with ugly lexan and dish wheels.
I would lean more towards USGT and/or VTA, not in creating a 21.5 TC class. Since USGT/VTA cars are using the same chassis, if someone wants to move up to the faster classes, change the motor, tires, body, and possibly the ESC and you are done. We did that at my local track before it shut down and there were many that started in VTA and a few graduated to 17.5 TC once they were comfortable doing so.
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Old 11-13-2014, 07:14 PM   #84
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For beginners a few things are certain. They need to have other reasons to race besides placing well to keep them enthusiastic about racing year over year.

1. For many beginners the look of the cars is what is appealing and hooked them in the first place. Scale bodies and "scale" looking tires help get people in and keep them enthusiastic even when the early learning curve whips their spirit. I think for most a "Scale body" with spec NON dish tires looks cool, not TC cars. Many racers take great pride in what scale body they use, how they paint it up ,trim it out, what rims they use etc. etc. Also, they are usually respectful of other racers to maintain their pimped out bodies and as a result over time they become great drivers. Many people are motivated by the looks as much as the technical and speed aspects of racing.

2. A spec motor !!! Why force beginners to play the motor of the month idiocy that 17.5 dictates. The learning curve is bad enough, take motors out of the equation.

3. 25.5 turn motors on carpet and 21.5 on asphalt is ideal. It is the right speed for beginners. Speed kills enthusiasm for many beginners

4. The overall expense has to be low enough to "hook" new racers in and keep them in... not catch and release Both initial cost and cost over an entire season has to be low. The slower spec motors, durable "scale" bodies and tires that last many race weekends are ideal to keep costs down.

See this video:

It is our Scale Spec Class ( Seattle RC Racers ). with 25.5 spec motors based on VTA/USGT rules created by our club's Competition Committee. It isn't limited to only beginners, its a class for anyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DJwb...0h0LR7kdbdA3BQ

IMHO, this "Scale Spec" class should be a ROAR Nationals class. IMHO , VTA is nice but the body choices limit its appeal to a wider range of racers. Our Scale Spec class incorporates VTA bodies and tires. That being said, leave 17.5 TC as stock. There is nothing wrong with it. Stock doesn't have to be a beginner class, ROAR should add a scale spec class at national events with a spec motor ( 25.5 for carpet , 21.5 for Asphalt ) and scale bodies !

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Last edited by Magnet Top; 11-13-2014 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 11-13-2014, 07:22 PM   #85
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Everything is too fast for beginners.

Help and guidance from the experienced racers, and a little bit of effort on the part of the beginners are what is always needed.. any class, any track, any speed.
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Old 11-13-2014, 07:50 PM   #86
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Any changes to motor etc... always cost ppl more money
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Old 11-13-2014, 08:09 PM   #87
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I really like the idea of a slower TC class with open body rules, much like USGT but I'd like the chassis to be TC legal with 25.5 motors. So 1380g, any blinky speedo, and slicks with a 25.5 motor. That car would only be a motor change away from 17.5 TC (maybe a body if you use a GT or VTA body) so it would relate very well to the setup that the "faster" guys are using. That would make it very easy for people to try to step up or step down between the classes with very little change to the cars.
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Old 11-13-2014, 08:20 PM   #88
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If you left it open body, as a race class, it would end up being only TC bodies.

Edit. If it is a novice class then any body/tire would be fine.
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Old 11-14-2014, 07:12 AM   #89
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If you left it open body, as a race class, it would end up being only TC bodies.

Edit. If it is a novice class then any body/tire would be fine.
If people prefer TC bodies then let them use a TC body. For looks, performance, whatever they want it's their preference.
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Old 11-14-2014, 07:50 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by theproffesor View Post
If you left it open body, as a race class, it would end up being only TC bodies.

Edit. If it is a novice class then any body/tire would be fine.
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If people prefer TC bodies then let them use a TC body. For looks, performance, whatever they want it's their preference.
Considering we're talking about a class for beginners, would body choice really matter? The only way a 25.5 TC class fills our need for an entry level class is to limit the class to drivers whose skills aren't developed to the point of leveraging aerodynamics to their distinct advantage. My vote would be to allow all 1/10 scale TC bodies; VTA, USGT, TC - doesn't matter; the point is to get them through the doors and on the track driving anything that fits the definition of a touring car in an environment they won't find "threatening".
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