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Old 11-12-2014, 08:38 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by biz77 View Post
We run a Spec Legends class here as part of our Winter on road program. For years our local track tried to find the right class for those that didn't want to or couldn't handle TC or 17.5 1/12th scale and didn't want to or could not afford the expense of either of these classes. They tried various 1/18th scale classes and eventually moved to the 1/14th and 1/16th scale Recoil/Vendettas. No matter what they tried it seemed as if the class would thrive initially, but die off within two years time.
Two years ago they gave us the Legends class. As we enter into the third season of racing this class we are seeing overall attendance skyrocket. Legends is by far the largest class and I suspect we will have six heats of them alone at our season opener this coming Saturday night. The most important advent of the Legends class at our track is the fact that we have new faces - many of them. We also see plenty of the old dogs running this class as well.
There is quite a bit to like about these Legends cars from a beginner's perspective...
They are cheap! You can start from nothing and have a complete car with sport radio, battery and charger for less than the price of a touring car kit. They are also cheap to run. Because of the simple design, there isn't much to break. When parts do break, they are inexpensive to replace.
They are super simple. There is almost no setup that can be done to the cars. Everything is static. They don't even have rear suspension.
Everyone runs the same 6-cell 1,800 Ni-Cd battery, fixed-timing Tamiya black can brushed motor, kit tires and gearing.
We have all skill levels from excellent to "can't quite figure out the steering wheel turns the car the same direction no matter if it's facing you or facing away from you." All the heats are entertaining. Some in the same way a demolition derby is entertaining and some because there is some good close racing where the top 3 or 4 spots are only separated by a couple tenths and the fast guys are not that far off our 17.5 TC pace.

I love the Legends car and would jump at the chance to race it on-road.

Cheap-Easy-Fun Doesn't get much better than the Legends class!
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Old 11-12-2014, 09:02 PM   #62
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At port jervis this summer, we clocked 17.5 blinky at 40mph. We were not going 40mph on 27t and cells. Maybe not even 19t. 17 5 is too fast. Stock should be 25.5, and 17.5 the middle class.
Anybody have dyno slips from brushed motors? A 27t was what, 40-50 watts or something like that? A good 17.5 is 150+ watts now.

Watch this vid. This is 19t back in the day. Thats maybe 17.5 speed now. The cars have gotten much faster, but all the racers have gotten better over time as well and dont realize how much...[YOUTUBE]http://youtu.be/61wL2Eq3qUk[/YOUTUBE]
RB 27T were 75-80w on my dyno at I think 6V.

We did a test earlier this year and RB 27T was faster than a 17.5T blinky.

Today we have higher voltage, less weight and cars generate more grip thus higher corner speed. With extra torque and corner speed motors can be geared taller.

17.5T blinky is quite a good speed for a racer with some level of experience it is the 100% green racers with a poorly setup car and struggle.
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Old 11-12-2014, 09:21 PM   #63
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Waiving the brown bs flag on 27t being faster than 17.5. They were not faster. Run the rules of yester year (motor, batt, weight) against the rules of today, and the 17.5 is as fast as mod used to be. BUT if your test put a 27t in a car with 8.4v lipo.and only 1380g, Im sure it was faster than a 17.5. Its would be like running a 7 cell back in the day.
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Old 11-12-2014, 09:45 PM   #64
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Yes it was a back to back in the same car same battery ect.

No point running the rules of yester year beside who has a good 10 year old Nimh battery that would provide a far comparison.

The only point is the 17.5T motor in its own right isn't a power house but the cars are faster today for other reasons as indicated in my post.
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Old 11-13-2014, 04:08 AM   #65
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Here's an old thread that might have some useful information on how to run a beginner's class:

Breakout Racing: The Ultimate Spec Class!!!
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Old 11-13-2014, 07:30 AM   #66
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Yes it was a back to back in the same car same battery ect.

No point running the rules of yester year beside who has a good 10 year old Nimh battery that would provide a far comparison.

The only point is the 17.5T motor in its own right isn't a power house but the cars are faster today for other reasons as indicated in my post.
The comparison was -->17.5 vs: old school 27t speed as a class, not 17.5 motor vs: 27t on 8v

When I watch indoor 17.5 racing, it looks fast, also 13.5 run the same times as mod at our carpet track

I too believe 21 or even 25t are more appropriate for stock indoor racing
If it's too slow for you, run 13.5/mod

2 TC classes are plenty, unless there are enough for a run what you brung true novice class

my .02$
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Old 11-13-2014, 08:14 AM   #67
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I have observed the evolution from 1200mah yellow cells and 27t brushed motors until what we have today. Speeds always go up as the equipment (batteries and motors) evolve. I recently stopped running WGT (1 cell 13.5) because of the speed. That combination with the current motors could probably out run the same car with the best 10.5 from 5 years ago. I switched to USGT and love it slower but still challenging. I am 63 after all and I don't have the reactions I once did.
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Old 11-13-2014, 08:19 AM   #68
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Good thread. Seems the majority consensus is 17.5 is too fast for the intro US racing class. I agree. Almost without exception my experience is when someone new (either completely or from offroad) sees a 17.5 TC they are taken aback by the speed.

Breakout racing, legends, VTA/USGT, 21.5 or 25.5 TC are all ideas to chew on.

I'll throw a few more into consideration:
  • Apparently CRC is having good success with stock spec 12th with spec foam tires and a 21.5 or 25.5 (can't remember which). Although, I think CRC may be an exception country-wide for running 12th as a starter class since pan is their focus.
  • Those GT12 cars look like a possibility. RC Madness in Connecticut are running those bodies on regular 12ths with a 21.5 or 25.5 (again can't remember which) with some success. They sure look cool. I'll give them that.
  • RC Excitement in Massachusetts are running the Veterra cars with year and have reportedly sold around 70 cars this season alone. Last club race there were 21 cars and it was only the 3rd or 4th club race of the season. Folks like the styling, initial price point, and fact they are RTR. Speed is also very acceptable to the newer folks - maybe 21.5 equivalent. Although probably the number one key to their success so far is the shop's concentration on marketing and selling the kits, the other elements to their success are in bold. Noted though that the Veterra's the tire cost, body cost, and erratic handling may be long-run deterrents. Time will tell.
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Old 11-13-2014, 08:32 AM   #69
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If it was my vote, I'd switch the classes up (as mentioned by another poster) to: 21.5, 13.5, open mod.

But I don't likely see that (21.5 > 17.5) happening right away. We have the vta/usgt classes that are slower. We still have Legends (awaiting a new era of popularity?)... I can't see 17.5 going anywhere. Is 17.5 too fast for a beginner? I see most adapt pretty well after 4-5 races. Is it too fast for someone that has never held a radio? Yes. But almost anything is at first.
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Old 11-13-2014, 08:56 AM   #70
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Remember that old saying "Speed Kills"?!? Well, this is true when you put a fast car in the hands of a novice r/c racer. After breaking their car and spending a bunch of money fixing it, it "kills" their (or their parents) interest and they move on to something else (or something cheaper). Speed is not cool when you spend more time wrenching in the pits instead of racing on the track.

I like the guys with the ideas of entry-level classes for new racers at their venues. Like I have mentioned before, this needs to be a grassroots thing started at the club level. You can't grow a huge tree if you have small roots at the base. If onroad racing is to get back to the level it once was (and I remember how big it was when I jumped aboard), we have to build up a big base of new and young racers, then groom them to move on to higher levels and repeat the process. Where I just came from racing in Mississippi, there were just as many racers 18 and under as there were racers 25 and over. And, some of those kids were damn good in the classes they raced!!!

We only want to slow things down for the new racers.
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Old 11-13-2014, 09:03 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by samnelso View Post
Good thread. Seems the majority consensus is 17.5 is too fast for the intro US racing class. I agree. Almost without exception my experience is when someone new (either completely or from offroad) sees a 17.5 TC they are taken aback by the speed.

Breakout racing, legends, VTA/USGT, 21.5 or 25.5 TC are all ideas to chew on.

I'll throw a few more into consideration:
  • Apparently CRC is having good success with stock spec 12th with spec foam tires and a 21.5 or 25.5 (can't remember which). Although, I think CRC may be an exception country-wide for running 12th as a starter class since pan is their focus.
  • Those GT12 cars look like a possibility. RC Madness in Connecticut are running those bodies on regular 12ths with a 21.5 or 25.5 (again can't remember which) with some success. They sure look cool. I'll give them that.
  • RC Excitement in Massachusetts are running the Veterra cars with year and have reportedly sold around 70 cars this season alone. Last club race there were 21 cars and it was only the 3rd or 4th club race of the season. Folks like the styling, initial price point, and fact they are RTR. Speed is also very acceptable to the newer folks - maybe 21.5 equivalent. Although probably the number one key to their success so far is the shop's concentration on marketing and selling the kits, the other elements to their success are in bold. Noted though that the Veterra's the tire cost, body cost, and erratic handling may be long-run deterrents. Time will tell.
GT12 is quickly becoming our biggest class in Madison, WI. We're running the BRCA GT12 Cup national rule set. We all run SupaStox and the newly released SupaStox GT so far, but other cars are out there or on the way. We are at 15 or 16 racers already and should be over 20 in a couple weeks (as paychecks will allow). Not one person has broken in 8 weeks of testing and practicing or the last 2 weeks of racing. Mind you it is 1S 13.5 and we are set on staying that way. Initial cost of ownership and the upkeep cost is lower than any other class out there and this is for a real racing car, not a toy.
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Old 11-13-2014, 09:03 AM   #72
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The comparison was -->17.5 vs: old school 27t speed as a class, not 17.5 motor vs: 27t on 8v

When I watch indoor 17.5 racing, it looks fast, also 13.5 run the same times as mod at our carpet track

I too believe 21 or even 25t are more appropriate for stock indoor racing
If it's too slow for you, run 13.5/mod

2 TC classes are plenty, unless there are enough for a run what you brung true novice class

my .02$
A comparison of that nature back to back is virtually impossible but we did the above test out of our own interest.

We run 4 classes, 21.5T, 17.5T, 13.5T and MOD. 2 classes isn't enough as the gap between 17.5T and mod is too large.

This discussion isn't what speed is suitable for you or me or other experienced racers but beginners. As per my previous posts top speed isn't the issue but the controlability/initial acceleration is.

Using a smaller rotor diameter ie 21.5T with a 12.3mm rotor goes a long way to providing better feel with less initial torque which makes the cars a lot more manageable for beginners.
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Old 11-13-2014, 09:08 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by samnelso View Post
Breakout racing, legends, VTA/USGT, 21.5 or 25.5 TC are all ideas to chew on.

I'll throw a few more into consideration:
  • Apparently CRC is having good success with stock spec 12th with spec foam tires and a 21.5 or 25.5 (can't remember which). Although, I think CRC may be an exception country-wide for running 12th as a starter class since pan is their focus.
  • Those GT12 cars look like a possibility. RC Madness in Connecticut are running those bodies on regular 12ths with a 21.5 or 25.5 (again can't remember which) with some success. They sure look cool. I'll give them that.
  • RC Excitement in Massachusetts are running the Veterra cars with year and have reportedly sold around 70 cars this season alone. Last club race there were 21 cars and it was only the 3rd or 4th club race of the season. Folks like the styling, initial price point, and fact they are RTR. Speed is also very acceptable to the newer folks - maybe 21.5 equivalent. Although probably the number one key to their success so far is the shop's concentration on marketing and selling the kits, the other elements to their success are in bold. Noted though that the Veterra's the tire cost, body cost, and erratic handling may be long-run deterrents. Time will tell.
There are certainly a few good ideas here - Spec-tire 1/12 with limited power and slowing down the TC class might be the key to invigorating the on-road scene over the long term. As many have suggested, entry-level classes as they exist now are too fast for beginners; we need to have classes restructured so that they get involved, stay involved, and spread the word to others with interest.

IMO - I think 25.5 TC would be a great place to start for beginners - they'd easily be able to move to faster classes as their skills improve by swapping a motor, and the slower speeds would limit breakage and maximize track time. It would also bring the gap between racers a lot closer, as demonstrated in VTA. Having a greater number of racers participating with a legitimate chance to get a podium finish fuels interest from week-to-week.
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Old 11-13-2014, 09:34 AM   #74
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GT12 is quickly becoming our biggest class in Madison, WI. We're running the BRCA GT12 Cup national rule set. We all run SupaStox and the newly released SupaStox GT so far, but other cars are out there or on the way. We are at 15 or 16 racers already and should be over 20 in a couple weeks (as paychecks will allow). Not one person has broken in 8 weeks of testing and practicing or the last 2 weeks of racing. Mind you it is 1S 13.5 and we are set on staying that way. Initial cost of ownership and the upkeep cost is lower than any other class out there and this is for a real racing car, not a toy.
I'm still having a tough time wrapping my head around this GT12 class. Do you also run 17.5 TC and 17.5 1/12th scale at your track? Where do these GT12 cars fall in line lap time wise between these two other classes?
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Old 11-13-2014, 09:55 AM   #75
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A comparison of that nature back to back is virtually impossible but we did the above test out of our own interest.

We run 4 classes, 21.5T, 17.5T, 13.5T and MOD. 2 classes isn't enough as the gap between 17.5T and mod is too fast.
Diff between 17 & 13/ mod at our track is about .5 - .8s
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