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Old 11-12-2014, 05:29 PM   #46
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I run 17.5 locally (no slower sedan classes was offered at the time) but raced VTA and USGT during our texas events. Won those classes and eventually moved up to 17.5 at the events after developing my driving and setup. A properly setup car makes racing more fun, consistent, and competitive.

The thing is when I started winning and running up front I moved away from the slower class after the season was over. I believe doing so will hopefully provide more growth for others running those classes instead of blowing them out everytime I race. Gives them a chance to run and front and be competitive amongst each other. Now I'm running 17.5 again my level is mid pack and I can work may way up hopefully.
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Old 11-12-2014, 05:35 PM   #47
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In Australia we run 21.5T blinky, 13.5T blinky and Mod.
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Old 11-12-2014, 05:56 PM   #48
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I disagree with the assertion that 17.5 is too fast for a beginner. Its too fast if they want to treat the throttle like a switch, or just drive with it pinned wide open and steer like a video game, but it is not that fast. People forget how fast we went on cells and brushed motors.

On road racing is less popular than offroad for three reasons. 1, it is hard, you can literally make your car undrivable through poor tuning. 2, you can only drive on road on a prepared or semi-prepared surface, no bashing in the ditch and throwing dirt around the back yard. And 3, we lack the novelty of having 5-10 semi- controlled crashes a lap known as jumps. That's why. Its hard, lacks novelty, and no backyard bashing. I know, I raced offroad for years before I ever drove a road car.
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:12 PM   #49
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Rather than changing motors why not just have the rookie class run a set gearing to keep them slow.
Because top speed is not the issue limited gearing only makes the issue (too much initial acceleration) worse.

Keep in mind beginners have little issue driving a 2 sp pull start nitro car that is capable of 60-70km/hr out of the box but hand the same person a high torque 17.5T TC and they will struggle and frequently crash.
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:25 PM   #50
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Reading this thread is illuminating. A bunch of "man up" responses, a few who only see to the end of their pit table, and some suggestions of what has worked for them.

I have been doing this a long time, and the only constant is the cars getting faster. 17.5 is too fast for the average new person.

I won't even try to answer what solution is needed. I do know when cars were slower there were more participants, and that goes from modified to 27t stock motors.
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:32 PM   #51
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Reading this thread is illuminating. A bunch of "man up" responses, a few who only see to the end of their pit table, and some suggestions of what has worked for them.

I have been doing this a long time, and the only constant is the cars getting faster. 17.5 is too fast for the average new person.

I won't even try to answer what solution is needed. I do know when cars were slower there were more participants, and that goes from modified to 27t stock motors.
Yep
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:50 PM   #52
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Back in the day we raced because cars were fast and it was fun... Now people only want to race if the cars are so slow that anyone can drive them? Times have changed I guess.... Used to be racers filled with desire to be good rather than creating more classes that are so slow anyone can drive them.
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:54 PM   #53
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Reading this thread is illuminating. A bunch of "man up" responses, a few who only see to the end of their pit table, and some suggestions of what has worked for them.

I have been doing this a long time, and the only constant is the cars getting faster. 17.5 is too fast for the average new person.

I won't even try to answer what solution is needed. I do know when cars were slower there were more participants, and that goes from modified to 27t stock motors.
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Old 11-12-2014, 07:05 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Racermac73 View Post
Back in the day we raced because cars were fast and it was fun... Now people only want to race if the cars are so slow that anyone can drive them? Times have changed I guess.... Used to be racers filled with desire to be good rather than creating more classes that are so slow anyone can drive them.
Go watch youtube videos of races from the 90's. The cars were slow. Cars are now frighteningly fast in the case of mod. 17.5 is easily as fast as a 19t motor on 4200 NiMHs. Realize we are using batteries @8.4v nominal, that finish at like 7.8v most of the time. I used to rate batteries on a turbo 30 by seeing how long they could hold 7v. Batteries always finished somewhere in the 6v range.

Essentially, we changed over to 7 cell racing.
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Old 11-12-2014, 07:07 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Racermac73 View Post
Back in the day we raced because cars were fast and it was fun... Now people only want to race if the cars are so slow that anyone can drive them? Times have changed I guess.... Used to be racers filled with desire to be good rather than creating more classes that are so slow anyone can drive them.
I don't think its about creating more classes, it's about creating more racers.
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Old 11-12-2014, 07:22 PM   #56
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What can we do as a hobby to make it less intimidating to race on-road? A decent 17.5 motor running in blinky mode can be a handful for a unskilled or beginning driver. It sure seem my cars are running way faster with brushless stock now than they were running 27 turn brushed motors a few years ago.

What would it take to make 21.5 turn brushless the entry level? Even an older driver with decreasing reactions doesn’t always need to run the fastest class. Currently we have a couple of the SoCal tracks running GT10 classes that are Stock Sedan with different bodies and spoked wheels. The speeds and setup are pretty much the same as Stock.

Anyone else out there think a 21.5 GT class could work? VTA cars welcome too. Basically just a 21.5 blinky class. All skill levels welcome but a slightly slower race.
In my opinion, it's not just the motors. It's also the tires (at least on carpet, maybe not so much on asphalt), the light weight, and to a lesser degree the bodies. The cars get out of shape because the rookie drivers can't keep up with the lightning response (especially if they have a lower-end radio and servo). Then the too-fast motor just magnifies the issue. Our club has loaner cars, that are a super-duper low-end Tamiyas (TT01 I think) with our Spec TC tire and Mazdaspeed 6 bodies. Probably low-end steering servos, too. They look absolutely painful on track, even with silver can motors, because the chassis can't even begin to deal with the grip and response generated by those tires.

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We've had great success growing new racers in Seattle. On the TC side, we offer the tandem of Stock (17.5/blinky) and Mod. But our foundation class is Scale Spec, a VTA/USGT combo. Deep fields every race meeting, a fine mix of newbs and established talent, and good times across the board. I'll emphasize it's not a Novice class. We offer Novice most nights as well. But Scale Spec is where our new racers make their bones.

Scale Spec: 1/10th scale electric chassis. 5mm minimum ride height. Tamiya 540 silver can motor or Novak SS Pro 25.5t (PN: 3425V), Ballistic 25.5t (PN: 3625V), and Ballistic Boss VTA Edition (PN: 3626V) brushless motors. 12.3mm rotors only. No restriction on endbell timing. ROAR-approved Non-Timing ESC for brushless motors. HPI D Compound tires. Realistic, scale bodies must be run on all chassis. VTA bodies may run included rear-deck spoilers. GT bodies may run included wings, or option wing sets that emphasize scale appearance. Maximum 6-cell NiMH or NiCd batteries or maximum 7.4v 2S lithium technology batteries. Lithium technology batteries must be in hard case. 4wd: 1450g minimum weight. FWD: No minimum weight. M-Chassis: No minimum weight. Open tire on Mini rims. The spirit of Scale Spec is reasonable cost, scale-appearance, even, competitive racing. Scale livery is encouraged. Drivers are encouraged to operate both within the letter and spirit of the rules.
<3 the Scale Spec. It's a great spec. Slow enough for the entry level racer to approach, fast enough to keep people learning for years, and diverse enough to let each racer fulfill their aesthetic desires.

Moose, when you visited Seattle last year (or very early this year, I can't remember), I loaned you my Scale Spec car for a race night at the Hanger. I'm pretty sure you enjoyed yourself.

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Old 11-12-2014, 07:54 PM   #57
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I disagree with the assertion that 17.5 is too fast for a beginner. Its too fast if they want to treat the throttle like a switch, or just drive with it pinned wide open and steer like a video game, but it is not that fast. People forget how fast we went on cells and brushed motors.

On road racing is less popular than offroad for three reasons. 1, it is hard, you can literally make your car undrivable through poor tuning. 2, you can only drive on road on a prepared or semi-prepared surface, no bashing in the ditch and throwing dirt around the back yard. And 3, we lack the novelty of having 5-10 semi- controlled crashes a lap known as jumps. That's why. Its hard, lacks novelty, and no backyard bashing. I know, I raced offroad for years before I ever drove a road car.
I'd mostly agree, and yeah, I raced off-road long before ever touching an on-road car. So I see your point.

It's (off vs. on-road) not much different than Supercross vs. Superbike. Off-road is just more popular.. has nothing to do with attitudes.

17.5 is too fast for a guy that has never wheeled a car at all. Beyond that, yeah speeds are up these days, but so are the quality of the cars we are strapping the motors into. Modern cars put the power down and stay stable to a much higher degree.

Legends- hey, thumbs up. Cheap and mad easy to wheel with foam tires and very low HP. Not a bad choice for any club. I've been watching them run lately and might even build one myself to run with the locals...
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Old 11-12-2014, 07:55 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by DesertRat View Post
I disagree with the assertion that 17.5 is too fast for a beginner. Its too fast if they want to treat the throttle like a switch, or just drive with it pinned wide open and steer like a video game, but it is not that fast. People forget how fast we went on cells and brushed
At port jervis this summer, we clocked 17.5 blinky at 40mph. We were not going 40mph on 27t and cells. Maybe not even 19t. 17 5 is too fast. Stock should be 25.5, and 17.5 the middle class.
Anybody have dyno slips from brushed motors? A 27t was what, 40-50 watts or something like that? A good 17.5 is 150+ watts now.

Watch this vid. This is 19t back in the day. Thats maybe 17.5 speed now. The cars have gotten much faster, but all the racers have gotten better over time as well and dont realize how much...[YOUTUBE]http://youtu.be/61wL2Eq3qUk[/YOUTUBE]
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Old 11-12-2014, 07:59 PM   #59
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I'll hook that up...

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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Old 11-12-2014, 08:18 PM   #60
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I don't think its about creating more classes, it's about creating more racers.
This post sums up this whole thread the best!!! Some of the ones that are now the "experts" and "pros" have forgotten the days when they were the newbie and guys with the attitudes like they have now were the ones complaining about the slow, erratic new racers in the way, messing up laps times and podium finishes. How soon some forget..........
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