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Old 11-12-2014, 04:04 PM   #31
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@locked Fair. Your points are all valid. I am speaking only from a beginner stand point. If we want people to join on road your explanation and desire is sure to keep them away. A beginner isn't going to walk into a track and sign up to race in the same race as a pro or even a fast guy. you are right Naoto can run whatever he wants.

I guess that is why off road is so much bigger in my mind. Pro's don't race down. The fast guys don't stay in the novice class and there IS ALWAYS a beginner or rookie class.

You can continue to think it is fine to have really fast guys run with beginners that are much slower (with re-sorting) and hope we will bring more folks into TC on road racing.

Most on here commenting are experienced on road guys who haven't been a beginner in a long time. I am speaking about beginners and getting more folks into on road.
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Old 11-12-2014, 04:06 PM   #32
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Ive been saying 17.5 is too fast for beginners for a couple years now. Drop it to 21.5 and make vta/usgt the same class at 25.5.
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Old 11-12-2014, 04:11 PM   #33
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On road/ Off road, this class, that class. Doesn't matter 17.5 is too fast for a new person who's never raced before.

The Tamiya 540 silver can or equivalent gets my vote.

Learn to drive the car first, learn to control the power later.
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Old 11-12-2014, 04:34 PM   #34
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For most beginners 17.5 is Too fast (and for some of the 17.5 drivers too ).
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Old 11-12-2014, 04:41 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goin2drt View Post
Here is the issue I see with the VTA/GT etc etc. classes. You can say that you SHOULD start here, or it is good to start here, or people should learn here before they jump up.

Problem with that is the crowd that has ZERO desire to run in those classes and want to run what the pro's or big boys drive. It really is any sport or hobby for that matter. What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday.

I don't want to watch an awesome race against the best (i.e. like the Florida race) and then go buy and drive a VTA car. I want a BD7 and drive that. You can say what you want but there is that crowd (me one of them) that has zero desire to drive ANYTHING but TC.

Same thing in Motocross. I don't watch Ryan Villapoto win a Supercross race and say, man I am going out to buy a 2001 KX250 to learn on and get good before I go buy a shiny new 2014 model. I want to go out and buy and ride the same that he has (albeit not a factory bike) but you get the point.

Also for a new guy, they are not going to want all these rules in a class like described above in Scale Spec. Talking about intimidating. Holy cow thats a lot of things to get right and as a beginner good luck.
Nothing stopping someone from running a BD7 in scale spec. People do it. If you want to run in the TC class that's fine too. But don't expect a special set of rules made up because you don't want to put the effort into getting better at something. There doesn't need to be more touring car classes. People need to pull up their panties and put some effort into something they want to do instead of expecting things to change to make it easier for them.
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Old 11-12-2014, 04:52 PM   #36
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To those that say they have zero interest in running anything TC, but still want a novice class, I say all you want is a trophy with no work for it.

Is there a place forna novice class, yes there is. But not just a novice TC. We don't have the numbers racing onroad for that. Novice has rules to, butit should be upnto the local track to set them.

As for your comparisons to the wold champ chassis, or your moto cross guy. Do you think those driversstarted in the classez they are winning. Hell no, many many years ago, they raced the smallest, slowest thing out there, and worked their way up. They may not uave liked it, but its called learning. Notonly about the car/bike, but about your own abilities. So IMO you have 2 choices, suck it up, run 17.5 TC, learn car set-up, driving lines, and deal with getting beat until you get better (sorry you wont get a trophy for a while ��), or suck it up get a USGT/USVTA ride and learn car set-up, driving lines and deal with not getting a trophy for a while here as well ��, but you'll probably get one sooner than staying in 17.5.

But to answer your orginal question, yes its too fast. Its the speed mod was years ago. But that doesnt mean we add a class for it. That is unless your local track has enough to populate a novice class and has rules in place to prcent sandbaggers.
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Old 11-12-2014, 05:01 PM   #37
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Well I didn't expect a consensus here but we sure are getting a bunch of good and differing opinions. Not being a race director or promoter all I can do is try and get people thinking. This thread was started just to stir the pot not to come to an agreement.
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Old 11-12-2014, 05:06 PM   #38
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Here is the thing with VTA, and part of what makes it a good choice for new guys to work on their skills- it requires a lot from the driver. The tires don't grip, the bodies have no down force, the motors are slow (this is all in comparison to TC)... you learn that being consistent is the only way to go "fast". The car needs to be set up right, but the driver needs to hit every mark, every time. I can promise you that anyone that spends enough time getting up to speed in VTA is going to be a lot better off once they try 17.5 TC. The extra speed won't take long to get used to, and the driving skills honed in VTA will only help to make the leap into 17.5 that much smoother.
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Old 11-12-2014, 05:09 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin544 View Post
Nothing stopping someone from running a BD7 in scale spec. People do it. If you want to run in the TC class that's fine too. But don't expect a special set of rules made up because you don't want to put the effort into getting better at something. There doesn't need to be more touring car classes. People need to pull up their panties and put some effort into something they want to do instead of expecting things to change to make it easier for them.
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To those that say they have zero interest in running anything TC, but still want a novice class, I say all you want is a trophy with no work for it.

Is there a place forna novice class, yes there is. But not just a novice TC. We don't have the numbers racing onroad for that. Novice has rules to, butit should be upnto the local track to set them.

As for your comparisons to the wold champ chassis, or your moto cross guy. Do you think those driversstarted in the classez they are winning. Hell no, many many years ago, they raced the smallest, slowest thing out there, and worked their way up. They may not uave liked it, but its called learning. Notonly about the car/bike, but about your own abilities. So IMO you have 2 choices, suck it up, run 17.5 TC, learn car set-up, driving lines, and deal with getting beat until you get better (sorry you wont get a trophy for a while ��), or suck it up get a USGT/USVTA ride and learn car set-up, driving lines and deal with not getting a trophy for a while here as well ��, but you'll probably get one sooner than staying in 17.5.

But to answer your orginal question, yes its too fast. Its the speed mod was years ago. But that doesnt mean we add a class for it. That is unless your local track has enough to populate a novice class and has rules in place to prcent sandbaggers.
Completely out of context and never said pros didn't start smaller now did I. It is attitudes just like these that on road stays small and off road does not. For those that don't want to buy VTA stuff and for those that CAN'T suck it up and dedicate their life to on road racing then there needs to be a place to bring new folks in. I never said you can't work for it. I never said everyone has to have a trophy so don't assume I said those things or you look like an ass.

I was speaking for true beginners getting in and for you two guys I guess you don't want anyone new in the hobby because if it is up to you they will only buy VTA because you told them that is their only option so I guess then they just don't race.

Off road does an awesome job with making beginners feel welcome and not intimidated by the like of your attitudes nor having to race with the club pro that thinks he is a pro and complains when the begonia can't get out of his way or bumps him. They allow them to race whatever they want and they ensure they are not racing around with guys that yell at them when they get in the way, ASSUME you probably do that.

Continue to live in your fantasy world and tell those newbie's exactly how you want them to get in the hobby, or don't and you can continue to have tracks close because no one wants to join the on road world.
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Old 11-12-2014, 05:27 PM   #40
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Club racing needs to be fun. It needs to bring in new racers in and provide a place to hone your skills. If someone watching is interested and sees the speeds of 17.5 on some tracks they smile and walk away. VTA is a fantastic entry class and since our club introduced it it has become the most popular class here. Bottom line is on road cars are too fast and very intimidating to a new racer. It's a clubs responsibility to build interest and slower cars can do that. Off road cars in comparison are much slower and raise the fun factor significantly. I could really anger a lot of people and say if it were up to me nobody could run anything lower than a 10.5 motor...... but I won't go there.
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Old 11-12-2014, 05:37 PM   #41
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Rather than changing motors why not just have the rookie class run a set gearing to keep them slow.
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Old 11-12-2014, 05:56 PM   #42
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People getting all worked up

Box-stock TT01 racing (with better tires)... sauce and go. Slow. Easy enough for anyone to run. Minimal setup or maintenance. I've seen it run at clubs I've been in and it seems to be a fairly good time. Cheap too.
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:09 PM   #43
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The whole point of a novice class is buy it Friday race it Saturday whether you have the right motor or tires or any skill. Any kid that buys an rtr then gets told he has to replace the motor at 90bucks and probably the esc since they usually aren't sensored. Oh and don't forget tires you have to change those too. Yeah that's another lost racer. Now tell that kid pay your 10 bucks go race with all those other new guys and HAVE FUN. that kid will be back as often as he can practicing or racing. Also the companies need to step up and offer decent upgradable rtrs for onroad. No more junk beginner cars that can't be made into a decent car. No one wants to ask how do I make my car faster and get the answer buy a real race car.
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:13 PM   #44
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Or local club run a class for any on road car, 13T hobbywing, 6.5FDR.
We have old tamiya cars competitive with new Xrays.
Young kid with muscular dystrophy to experienced racers.
Its fast enough, its slow enough, its cheap.
Its a great way to start, or just have fun (something that seems many racers have forgotten about)

But it doesn't matter what type of car you run, what motor you run, how equal the cars are. The fast guys will always be faster than the slow guys
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:17 PM   #45
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Quote:
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I just came from visiting a track in Ocean Springs, Mississippi where oval is big. For the new racers to oval, they have a Legends class that consists of a spec brushed motor, brushed ESC, and a 1800 NiMH battery. This give the new guys a class to develop their skills while eventually feeding into the faster oval classes once they feel they have mastered the Legends class. And, it keeps them out of the way of the fast guys who in turn help them to get better.
We run a Spec Legends class here as part of our Winter on road program. For years our local track tried to find the right class for those that didn't want to or couldn't handle TC or 17.5 1/12th scale and didn't want to or could not afford the expense of either of these classes. They tried various 1/18th scale classes and eventually moved to the 1/14th and 1/16th scale Recoil/Vendettas. No matter what they tried it seemed as if the class would thrive initially, but die off within two years time.
Two years ago they gave us the Legends class. As we enter into the third season of racing this class we are seeing overall attendance skyrocket. Legends is by far the largest class and I suspect we will have six heats of them alone at our season opener this coming Saturday night. The most important advent of the Legends class at our track is the fact that we have new faces - many of them. We also see plenty of the old dogs running this class as well.
There is quite a bit to like about these Legends cars from a beginner's perspective...
They are cheap! You can start from nothing and have a complete car with sport radio, battery and charger for less than the price of a touring car kit. They are also cheap to run. Because of the simple design, there isn't much to break. When parts do break, they are inexpensive to replace.
They are super simple. There is almost no setup that can be done to the cars. Everything is static. They don't even have rear suspension.
Everyone runs the same 6-cell 1,800 Ni-Cd battery, fixed-timing Tamiya black can brushed motor, kit tires and gearing.
We have all skill levels from excellent to "can't quite figure out the steering wheel turns the car the same direction no matter if it's facing you or facing away from you." All the heats are entertaining. Some in the same way a demolition derby is entertaining and some because there is some good close racing where the top 3 or 4 spots are only separated by a couple tenths and the fast guys are not that far off our 17.5 TC pace.
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