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Old 11-12-2014, 01:47 PM   #16
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21.5 isn't that much slower. I've seen guys on the podium at 17.5 club races RUNNING 21.5 lol

USGT is slower because tires and weight and bodies

If you want slower it is very simple run VTA.

If you say well it isn't a national class my response is why does a guy that wants to run a SLOWER car think he can or should be a national champion??? When he gets better and faster he can run 17.5 or mod and win a title.
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Old 11-12-2014, 01:51 PM   #17
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In Australia we run 21.5T blinky, 13.5T blinky and Mod.

For this weekends Australian titles, 21.5 is the biggest class, 3 times the size of Mod.

It works, its successful and growing quickly. Its really only on the biggest of tracks you start wanting more.
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Old 11-12-2014, 01:59 PM   #18
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We've had great success growing new racers in Seattle. On the TC side, we offer the tandem of Stock (17.5/blinky) and Mod. But our foundation class is Scale Spec, a VTA/USGT combo. Deep fields every race meeting, a fine mix of newbs and established talent, and good times across the board. I'll emphasize it's not a Novice class. We offer Novice most nights as well. But Scale Spec is where our new racers make their bones.

Scale Spec: 1/10th scale electric chassis. 5mm minimum ride height. Tamiya 540 silver can motor or Novak SS Pro 25.5t (PN: 3425V), Ballistic 25.5t (PN: 3625V), and Ballistic Boss VTA Edition (PN: 3626V) brushless motors. 12.3mm rotors only. No restriction on endbell timing. ROAR-approved Non-Timing ESC for brushless motors. HPI D Compound tires. Realistic, scale bodies must be run on all chassis. VTA bodies may run included rear-deck spoilers. GT bodies may run included wings, or option wing sets that emphasize scale appearance. Maximum 6-cell NiMH or NiCd batteries or maximum 7.4v 2S lithium technology batteries. Lithium technology batteries must be in hard case. 4wd: 1450g minimum weight. FWD: No minimum weight. M-Chassis: No minimum weight. Open tire on Mini rims. The spirit of Scale Spec is reasonable cost, scale-appearance, even, competitive racing. Scale livery is encouraged. Drivers are encouraged to operate both within the letter and spirit of the rules.
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:06 PM   #19
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It really depends on the size of track as well as the inherent skills of the individual new racer.

The first class I ever raced was 13.5 boosted TC, on a medium-large sized parking lot track. I loved it. They had a 21.5 blinky class. I just had no desire to race it. After I got a second car the next year, I decided to also race the slower class for extra track time. It was still fun, but nowhere near as exciting. I far preferred racing a class that required some throttle control. I still do.

Anyway, I could say that 17.5 is not too slow for all beginners. Maybe some tracks are a bit too small and have barriers that are too unforgiving for some beginners though, regardless of motor. 21.5 or even 25.5 are not that much slower than 17.5 on a really small track. It wouldn't make much difference. Classes already exist for those slower motors anyway though.
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:08 PM   #20
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In order to grow onroad racing again, it needs to go back to the grassroot club level. A feeder class (ie: VTA, USGT, etc.) in which a newbie can get started and get comfortable with building their driving skills to the point to where they can then move on to run with the bigger dogs. Many new racers get discouraged when they are "thrown to the wolves", getting yelled at and crashed out for being in the way.

I just came from visiting a track in Ocean Springs, Mississippi where oval is big. For the new racers to oval, they have a Legends class that consists of a spec brushed motor, brushed ESC, and a 1800 NiMH battery. This give the new guys a class to develop their skills while eventually feeding into the faster oval classes once they feel they have mastered the Legends class. And, it keeps them out of the way of the fast guys who in turn help them to get better.

I do understand for some areas, another class may not work. But in some areas, it could be the idea thing to grow r/c racing/participation.
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:16 PM   #21
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Here is the issue I see with the VTA/GT etc etc. classes. You can say that you SHOULD start here, or it is good to start here, or people should learn here before they jump up.

Problem with that is the crowd that has ZERO desire to run in those classes and want to run what the pro's or big boys drive. It really is any sport or hobby for that matter. What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday.

I don't want to watch an awesome race against the best (i.e. like the Florida race) and then go buy and drive a VTA car. I want a BD7 and drive that. You can say what you want but there is that crowd (me one of them) that has zero desire to drive ANYTHING but TC.

Same thing in Motocross. I don't watch Ryan Villapoto win a Supercross race and say, man I am going out to buy a 2001 KX250 to learn on and get good before I go buy a shiny new 2014 model. I want to go out and buy and ride the same that he has (albeit not a factory bike) but you get the point.

Also for a new guy, they are not going to want all these rules in a class like described above in Scale Spec. Talking about intimidating. Holy cow thats a lot of things to get right and as a beginner good luck.
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:22 PM   #22
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my answer is Yes.

enjoy
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:22 PM   #23
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I wouldn't consider 17.5T blinky to be a beginner class, most people will be capable of moving up to 17.5T once they have a car that handels and they have the basics of driving under control.

21.5T blinky is very slow but the motor still provide surprising amounts of initial torque which is where new drives seem to struggle and come unstuck.

Limiting FDR only makes the initial acceleration problem out of tight corners worse.

I rather not introduce more rules if it can be avoided and the best solution is for clubs to help beginners with car setup, adjust ESC settings to reduce the initial punch to make things easier.

My thoughts are a small diameter rotor such as the 12.3mm broad rpm rotors would be a better way to go for beginners as it takes the edge of the initial torque provides a little better feel and is less sensitive to gearing.
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:25 PM   #24
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Does no ones track have a novice class? Locally at the offroad track novice is our beginner class and the only rule is 2s packs. This lets anyone race no matter the car or motor. Guys who dominate or win get bumped up to a class of their choosing.(stock or mod)
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gooba View Post
Does no ones track have a novice class? Locally at the offroad track novice is our beginner class and the only rule is 2s packs. This lets anyone race no matter the car or motor. Guys who dominate or win get bumped up to a class of their choosing.(stock or mod)
Not here anyway. That's what sorting into A,B,C,D... mains are for. What's the difference between winning Novice or winning the D main?

All of our offroad classes are open mod. no stock offroad here.
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:32 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gooba View Post
Does no ones track have a novice class? Locally at the offroad track novice is our beginner class and the only rule is 2s packs. This lets anyone race no matter the car or motor. Guys who dominate or win get bumped up to a class of their choosing.(stock or mod)
Winner, winner chicken dinner. Amen. Less rules, run what you brung and let the beginners not feel intimidated and when they win they move out. We should learn a thing or two from off road. They have something right.
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:34 PM   #27
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Not here anyway. That's what sorting into A,B,C,D... mains are for. What's the difference between winning Novice or winning the D main?
So whats the solution when say new guy that no one knows his ability is in the first qualifier with the residence pro that is still running 17.5 even though he should be in a different class and said newbie gets in his way. He is done for the night and possibly for good. True story by the way.
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:37 PM   #28
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The addition of more class(es) typically has the effect of diluting the competition......which IMO is always a bad thing. There is a very simple solution if one thinks that his car has too much power or that it is too hard to drive. That solution is as simple as just remembering that it is OK to use something less than full throttle. Just because lots of power is available, that doesn't mean that the driver must always try to use it. Personally, I learned this very lesson some years ago when we ran modified 1/12th scale on the local level. The often used phrase "slow is fast" comes to mind. If one finds his/her car too hard to handle, the simple but often overlooked solution is to just drive it more gently. Eventually and gradually one can learn to exploit the available power. Please remember that the whole reason for running qualifiers is to sort out the very fastest guys from the not-quite-as fast drivers. Typically, by the end of a race day, the faster guys will all be grouped together and they can have a good race together in the A main. The almost fast guys can have a good race in the B main. And the not-so fast guys can have a good race in the C main. Etc, etc. The quaifiiers automatically sort out the fast from the not-so fast. IMO, it is just not necessary nor is desirable to add an additional class(es) in order to do that. The more classes there are, the more diluted each class becomes.
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:48 PM   #29
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So whats the solution when say new guy that no one knows his ability is in the first qualifier with the residence pro that is still running 17.5 even though he should be in a different class and said newbie gets in his way. He is done for the night and possibly for good. True story by the way.
quals are usually pre-sorted by the RD with most of the fast guys together. New people are often stuck with the slowest group. If they are much quicker, an end of round resort will move them up.

Breaks happen. Most people carry spare parts for this reason.

No such thing as someone being too fast to race any class they want, unless it's specifically a beginners only class. If Naoto Matsukura wanted to race USVTA and has a legal car, he can race USVTA. This whole "you have to move up" stuff is nonsense. So you're a little less likely to win the A-main. So what? Maybe you'll win the B-main.
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Old 11-12-2014, 03:00 PM   #30
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If you have enough beginners or people who are just getting blown away in stock, have a Novice class, it's that simple. Encourage them to run a real easy gear and even more important, help newbies set up their cars. A little help can speed someone up a long way.

Also, Silver Can Mini is a perfectly good beginner class. The cars are cheap and have no power, so they're hard to break.
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