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Old 11-08-2014, 06:40 AM   #16
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Good to see this class taking off outside of the UK, it makes for great racing at all levels at a good price. We see it as a great introduction to RC racing which has also seen a resurgence into the traditional 1/12th scale. Many of us use the GT12 class to supplement racing in other classes like 1/10th and 1/8th off road so the idea of having some great racing with minimal maintenance and cost is a big attraction.

If some people want to knock the GT12 class then their loss but for most newcomers traditional 1/12th scale seems to be so involving it puts people off, surely anything that can help bring newcomers into RC racing is a good thing?
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Old 11-08-2014, 06:50 AM   #17
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No matter how you look at it, the class must work because it's so popular.

Yes there's rules but it discourages bespoke one-off specials and expensive materials, this is a class available to anyone, buy a kit, built it and race.

I've raced 12th since the early 80's and is my 1st love but love to race GT12 as it's a bigger challenge, the cars don't carve a corner like a 12th, they tend to have a more pronounced drift.
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Old 11-08-2014, 02:53 PM   #18
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What tire truer mandrel do you use for these tires?
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:33 PM   #19
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Iv'e got an old turnigy tire truer arbour which does all my LMP12 wheels, Corally 12th wheels and GT12.
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
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What tire truer mandrel do you use for these tires?
I had an old 8th circuit one I had turned down, some tc ones fit with some heat shrink added to the thread
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:49 PM   #21
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On-road attendance is pitiful - we need to try something here (US) that works. I've witnessed track after track, either close or rip the rug out and throw dirt on it. Those facilities that have went to dirt are thriving beautifully.

What does that tell you?

And from the previous two pages of comments one of those reasons is apparent.

On-road has been too exclusionary and cost prohibitive - those with lesser vocabularies, that means expensive. Those that could afford it got fed up with the egomaniacs and the condescending attitudes that has sadly defined the on-road scene for years.

I've raced RC in one form or another for decades now; on-road, off-road, 4WD sedan, 1/12 scale, Pro10, buggy, stadium truck. 1/8 scale, all the various iterations of short-course and tons of classes I can't recall enough to name. I'll race anything with wheels on it, but if you have some odd religious issue with a particular class, just go about your business and let it alone. We aren't killing it here in the States with on-road. You should be supportive of any class that has a fighting chance to add new drivers to your own, because NOTHING is doing that now...now is it?

Folks in the UK are onto something, I'm sure of it. Myself and another in Wisconsin wanted to give this a shot after researching a chassis that could appeal to new drivers while having the ability to maintain the interest of more experienced racers. It's not about the class, it's about the racing. Who cares if it's a hotdog in a stale bun with wheels on it. If you don't have anyone to race with, what's the point?

GT12 is a class without any glaring faults, or the closest to it I've seen. The cars are, by rule, affordable, durable, surprising fast, handle beautifully and yet by rule again, simple enough to tune and maintain to make them an ideal platform to live with, week after week. Give a new driver a 1/12 scale or a 4WD sedan. I can tell you how that goes - he sells it in two weeks and never returns.

Those in the UK have been running these things around now since what, 1969? Mardave? They've got something figured out that we haven't here in the States, and it's working.

If it's not what you're jonesing for, that's cool, buzz off and let others make at least an attempt to get something on-road going here - not like it's going to dilute your hugely popular class - yes, that was sarcasm.

I want to thank those that run this class in the UK for helping us out with all the questions we've had, we should have about fifteen GT12's in our little club by next weeks end.
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Old 11-08-2014, 04:10 PM   #22
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No rubber tires?
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Old 11-08-2014, 04:16 PM   #23
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Rubber tyres aren't competitive in any form of circuit pan racing on carpet
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Old 11-08-2014, 05:40 PM   #24
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Hello all,

I am the chairman of the 1/12 electric section of the BRCA, so it's my job to coordinate and oversee the activities of 1/12 scale in the UK. To be fair we are more like 'the pan car section' as we encompass WorldGT and F1 too, although they don't have a huge following here at the present time.

When I started racing 1/12 scale some 10 years ago, I went to a BRCA national and there were barely 45 drivers in attendance. The track was small, and by our standards of today was not really up to par. The people I raced with are great, and many of them stuck around, but at the time they were an ever-dwindling bunch. It was a highly specialized class.

Since then, the 1/12 class has seen significant change; the switch to brushless motors, LiPo batteries, evolving body designs, ever-changing car designs, different tire additives - the list goes on.

Most of those things have combined to give a class that is, in a way, more accessible. It is no longer a necessity to have the best batteries and in-depth knowledge and experience of maintaining electronics in order to be reasonably competitive. The introduction of stock classes has also helped with that. To many (inclding myself) some of the purity has been lost. Making runtime was once an art that I watched my heroes (Spashett, Grifiths et al) accomplish with relative ease, and there was far more of a tactical side to racing 1/12 scale. That is part of what attracted me to it, but also something that frustrated me as an inexperienced hand.

Whatever peoples views and opinions might be on the above, the statistics will always ring true. By about 2010, 1/12 scale was booming in the UK - our national events were at or nearly full and drivers were once again buzzing about the class. Even some old faces were making a return. The tracks and organisation were getting better with each year, and the trend was very much an upward facing one. Great!

But something was still missing. National level racing was popular; good numbers, awesome tracks, high grip. All good! However, the club scene still wasn't great. Most people who raced 1/12 scale did it as their second class. Something to do in the winter when the weather here was too bad for tc racing. To that end, the majority of racers were only racing the class at national level and selected other events. There wasn't much of a club scene to speak of. Why?

A glance at a 'modern' 1/12 car shows up many things which tell us why they don't lend themselves to club racing. 1/12 scale is fast... really fast! It's not the kind of class that a beginner can just pick up and race. Even when you fit a slow motor, they react unbelievably quickly, and it's still very easy to get through tyres and bodyshells like they're going out of fashion. The tracks have to be quite big, and undoubtedly smooth/flat. Whilst seemingly quite simple to those of us that know them, in fact 1/12 cars are quite technical and highly sensitive; to the average joe at a club, 0.5mm of ride height or a mildly chunked tyre shouldn't be important. But in 1/12 scale those things are important. That's before you get into the realms of tweak caused by badly routed motor wires, or poorly built diffs. By nature it is a 'specialists' class and not one which lends itself to the entry level racer, or someone who just wants to 'dabble' occasionally.

So we decided to do something about it. Something was needed that is relatively simple, affordable and yet attractive enough for people to want to have a go. It had to relate to 'proper' 1/12 scale sufficiently to be relevant, but not be a direct clone of it. GT12 was the answer. A few guys were running Mardave cars which ended up becoming the basis for the rules we now have, and then the release of the original Schumacher Supastox really got the ball rolling. It was a bunch of racers that came up with the idea; we (the BRCA) enabled it to be realized.

After a 'trial year' of running cars to loose rules as support at our 1/12 nationals, we wrote some proper rules and subsequently ran it as an officially recognised class at our national events. During those two years, the class developed at a rapid rate. It was booming, particularly at club level. It seemed that the existence of a nationally accepted set of rules and a 'proper' class had led to unprecedented takeup of it at club level. In hindsight that was no wonder really; a small, cheap, easy to run class that was perfectly suited to small carpet tracks using cars that can withstand a lot of punishment. To that end it's the perfect club class; to the point where several people informed me that "GT12 had saved their club".

Now we find ourselves in a position where it's popular to the point of having outgrown it's 20-entry support class allocation at our 1/12 nationals, which are also over-subscibed. So for this season we have 2 national championships; "LMP12" for 'classic 1/12 scale' and "GT", for GT12, WorldGT and F1. I expect 80-90 entries at each of our six LMP national events (several are already fully booked with 90 + reserves), and at least 60-70 entries at each of the four GT national events (probably 40+ GT12 and the rest WorldGT and F1). Not only that, but we are continuing to see people who came into the section with GT12 a couple of years ago now trying their hand at proper 1/12 scale, which was one of the reasons for introducing GT12 in the first place.

I have always been someone who dislikes seeing too many 'classes'. I see reports of big US races with 250+ entries, but then sigh when I see that those entries are spread across about 10 different classes. The racing would be way better with 3 or 4 classes and 70+ entries in each. Sure not everyone can race modified, but is there any reason to have more than a couple of motor classes within a 'chassis formula'?

I think the answer is to give people choice, but in the right way. Rather than have a dozen different classes which use the same cars but different motors, why not have a class (in our case GT12) that gets people 'in the door' and is sustainable at clubs, and then give them options (in our case 1/12 scale mainly) to pursure if they wish once they've got a bit of experience running a similar, but much simpler and cheaper class?

GT12 has been a revelation in the UK, and with the interest of further manufacturers it is likely to keep growing for years to come. The introduction of the Protoform body for GT12 could provide the springboard it needs to eventually become adopted aboad. If a manufacturer like Associated or Xray decided to do a chassis then it would very quickly explode globally I think. The trick for us will be trying to control that growth to keep it as it was originally intended. Hopefully the rules and their intent (kit price caps, suspension/damper rules etc...) will enable us to achieve that. We welcome other bodies and nations who might wish to use our rules and procedures for their racing - that is why we exist!

As always, the UK lads (drivers and officials, many of us both!) are happy to answer any questions you might have. If you would like to contact me directly then my email address is 12cchair@brca.org, or add/message me on Facebook. In the meantime, have fun folks! Embrace it, and consider the great benefits it could offer, particularly at entry/club level.
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Last edited by Mark Stiles; 11-08-2014 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 11-09-2014, 03:18 AM   #25
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If you want to race cheap then the 1/18 cars with stock 180 motor is the way to go. We have done this for many years in a local pub. Over 6 races only 2 sets of tires, 1 or 2 10-dollar motors, 2x 15-dollar packs and a priceless fun.

Saddly more and more people are searching the serious indoor winter racing with pancars and touring at tracks over the border.
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Old 11-09-2014, 04:09 AM   #26
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Fantastic post Mark, would love to see that on GT12 Circuit Cars (UK) too
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Old 11-09-2014, 05:37 AM   #27
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I find it hard to believe that a 13.5 + 1S is cheaper than 21.5 + 2S when you account for having to run a receiver pack or buying a specialized 1S speedo. The theory that a 2S Shorty is double the cost of a 1S is simply not true. It's closer to a +150% margin.

That being said, I'm not hoping for failure. On the contrary I'd like to see a resurgence of 1/12th in the U.S. I'm just not convinced this is the "magic bullet". Let's be honest, one of the biggest costs of 1/12th scale (after you get a screamer motor) are tires. But unless I missed it, there is no spec tire requirement in the rules. That seems odd to me that a GT class doesn't have a spec tire.

We run a 1/12th class at our club that requires a spec 21.5 motor/1S battery/gear+spur/tires. It works great for the entry level but is lacking the speed that the experienced racers would want.
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Old 11-09-2014, 06:09 AM   #28
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Quote:
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I find it hard to believe that a 13.5 + 1S is cheaper than 21.5 + 2S when you account for having to run a receiver pack or buying a specialized 1S speedo. The theory that a 2S Shorty is double the cost of a 1S is simply not true. It's closer to a +150% margin.

That being said, I'm not hoping for failure. On the contrary I'd like to see a resurgence of 1/12th in the U.S. I'm just not convinced this is the "magic bullet". Let's be honest, one of the biggest costs of 1/12th scale (after you get a screamer motor) are tires. But unless I missed it, there is no spec tire requirement in the rules. That seems odd to me that a GT class doesn't have a spec tire.

We run a 1/12th class at our club that requires a spec 21.5 motor/1S battery/gear+spur/tires. It works great for the entry level but is lacking the speed that the experienced racers would want.
A +150% margin isn't negligible?

Many of us had the same fears.

1S speedo's are now ubiquitous, every MFG. makes one and they are cheap. No need for a booster or external receiver pack. Most are starting to make the speedo's with internal boosters, so you don't even have to futz with mounting it.

If someone new is getting into 1/12 scale or a current racer is getting into the class, you are purchasing a 1S capable speedo and 1S battery anyway. Many of the guys trying GT12 at our club don't have a 21.5 motor - why would they? But most do have a 13.5.

In our area, it's a horse a piece. What does a set of four sedan tires cost? How about a mounted set of off-road tires?

Tire choice at our track is a welcomed tuning option. We share carpet with an off-road program that picks up the groove laid down by us on alternate race days. We like the ability to make the cars work when traction drops or increases.

The tires for these things are cheap, we don't even true them really, just rotate and race.
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Old 11-09-2014, 06:35 AM   #29
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From what i see at my own local club is there are a few guys that just got started with racing a TC model and inmediately bought a 1/12 pan car aswell.
If you look at their performances you would inmediately say that this isn't the correct car to start with.
Many times their cars are pulled off the track cause the car has another faillure as it isn't build as it should be as also many electric faillures.
I can't keep up the times they do not finish even a 5 minute race and the ESC's or motors they had to replace.
This tells me that they better got started with a GT12 supastox to be able to grow with a 1/12th scale racing car.
1/12th scale racing looks cool, simple and fast in the right hands but it isn't in the hands of a beginner.
Therefor it would be better to have a GT12 class at local clubs to get people started in the right conditions into a 1/12th scale racing and still being affordable.

That's just my opinion.
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Old 11-09-2014, 10:52 AM   #30
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What kind of tires does the GT12 uses, rubber or foam?
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