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Old 11-25-2014, 02:56 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by Dave H View Post
I've been reading along and trying to think through an idea. I may not be there but hey can't wait forever. To help build Roar and increase membership Iíd like to see Roar reach out to the big well attended events. Perhaps not a Roar sanctioned event as they are currently defined, at least to start, but say a Roar affiliated race, create a new category/option. Arenít there generally some Roar people of some level already at most of these races?

A two-way thing, assist some with the race, gain some positive Roar exposure to the racers, and learn first hand why these races are more popular. Ideally the racers, and perhaps even the race crews, might then be more inclined to be more active in Roar.



I like, maybe thatís the way to get started, free up some time like you mention to do some of the other ideas being offered.

Get a group of events in the rotation, and it might even be a way to get a national series going that some would like to see. I've always thought travel to be a barrier to a national series, hey this isn't F1 after all, but the guys who actually win nats generally go to most of these anyway. And the regular racer can go to one of their choice and take pride in making the B, C, or whatever at a Nats event.
This idea was actually floated in the past, but when you consider, as has been pointed out, these races have no need for ROAR and they would see it as more of a hindrance than a help. They can add new non standard classes and have deals for handout equipment that might not be viable under ROAR rules. They are not asking for membership fees in addition to race fees.

As far as trying to enforce copyright with the rules, it used to be you had to become a ROAR member to get a rulebook. At some point, they put the rules online since there were enough rulebooks out there that it didn't matter anyway. The rules are out there, nobody is going to be able to stop anyone from using them. Now several countries are piggybacking our approvals, hence all the pissed off Australians when the D3.5 was removed from the list.
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Old 11-25-2014, 03:18 AM   #497
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So here we are again with the attitude. I think this had turned into a somewhat constructive conversation. Again, another reason ROAR needs to take a step back and look at the suggestions being offered and act on them not come back with comments like this.
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You clearly have no idea how copyright law works... Maybe you should invent special glasses to view the rules... That way everyone can send away for the secret glasses to view the special rules.

Come on guys you make yourself relevant by creating good solid rules that are aligned with the rest of the governing bodies around the world and you market and push your national race program. That's it...
Before you guys get too crazy, remember he's only responding to this:

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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
That is not exactly true. If they did not need ROAR these large popular races would be referencing their own rules but instead they reference ROAR rules even going so far as linking to ROAR's approved product lists. Others that list their own rules copy and paste ROAR's list.

It is more difficult to find a race that doesn't reference "ROAR rules" than to find one that does.


Dave's idea is good although not sure how you can manage it.
I don't think it's the right thing to do, enforcing copyright. He's just asking if ROAR should maybe use it's assets to market itself (membership = rules access). In my opinion, ROAR does better being "open source". Let's just try to keep working together.
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Old 11-25-2014, 04:55 AM   #498
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Topic of discussion for today.
Should Roar go back to handing out stock class motors?
Should Roar put out a bid to our afilates for our specific specifications on these
motors? Part of the bid would be Price. Make it affordable to the member.
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Old 11-25-2014, 05:24 AM   #499
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I have a question. What keeps ROAR from being able to have a prefered or endorsed brand? Say Tekin or Novak or whatever.

I remember the handout days, and I remember thst you could get a max of 3 motors. Yes there were moteor tweekers that did that, but it was a more even playing field than now.

USVTA has single sourced with their rules for the motor. The system works. I am not a fan of Novak in general, but the 25.5 motor they make (and made first) works well. From what I understand USVTA asked several manufacturers to make one, and Novak stepped up.

I think it woukd cool if several manufacturers made a motor to the exact same design and specs. That way, you could still run your favorite brand, but not worry about the motor of the week. IE, its a ROAR spec motor made by Tekin in my car, but you have the same motor made by Novak in your car.
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Old 11-25-2014, 05:48 AM   #500
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I have a question. What keeps ROAR from being able to have a prefered or endorsed brand? Say Tekin or Novak or whatever.

I remember the handout days, and I remember thst you could get a max of 3 motors. Yes there were moteor tweekers that did that, but it was a more even playing field than now.

USVTA has single sourced with their rules for the motor. The system works. I am not a fan of Novak in general, but the 25.5 motor they make (and made first) works well. From what I understand USVTA asked several manufacturers to make one, and Novak stepped up.

I think it woukd cool if several manufacturers made a motor to the exact same design and specs. That way, you could still run your favorite brand, but not worry about the motor of the week. IE, its a ROAR spec motor made by Tekin in my car, but you have the same motor made by Novak in your car.
Nothing keeps us from having a endorsed brand motor. However putting it out for a bid would be fair too all.This would give manufacturers a chance to be exclusive to Roar for a period of time. Plus give the members the best price.
It would solve a lot of problems.
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Old 11-25-2014, 05:59 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by NITRO 540 View Post
Nothing keeps us from having a endorsed brand motor. However putting it out for a bid would be fair too all.This would give manufacturers a chance to be exclusive to Roar for a period of time. Plus give the members the best price.
It would solve a lot of problems.
One of the major downsides I could see would be that with a bidding war usually brings a reliability factor and quality factor. Companies WILL cut corners so they can get their motor out there. So when you end up with motors that are super heavy (affects car handling), cheap components (motors fail easier) and other issues.

If those issues were not a factor I would have no issue with some sort of motor handout program.

I know IIC did it the first year of BL motors. Each manufacture got to put a bid in and they used a different brand for each class if I remember correctly. That way it was fair to the companies for one and two it brought in sponsorship dollars for the event from more than just one company.

Sponsorship dollars are very important to the host tracks also since the cost of putting on an event is so high versus the monies received from entries.
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Old 11-25-2014, 06:13 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by NITRO 540 View Post
Topic of discussion for today.
Should Roar go back to handing out stock class motors?
Should Roar put out a bid to our afilates for our specific specifications on these
motors? Part of the bid would be Price. Make it affordable to the member.
Yes! Make it a 21.5 for TC and 17.5 for 1/12 (not sure the requirements for offroad) with tabs crimping the endbell/sensor assembly together. Your entry includes one motor and you have the option to buy an additional two motors for each class. Melt down your three motors and you go home. The additional motors could be sold for under $40 each. The entry fee would go up slightly due the included motor and buying the full allotment of motors for one class would add @ $80 max to fees for one class. Make the intermediate class 13.5 for TC and 10.5 or 13.5 for 1/12 and open to any approved motor.
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Old 11-25-2014, 08:10 AM   #503
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The locked endbell is a winner! Make it 21.5 for off-road too. Also at the bigger races 3 motor limit is great too. Eliminate the middle class, run stock or mod. Keep it simple...
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Old 11-25-2014, 08:25 AM   #504
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The locked endbell is a winner! Make it 21.5 for off-road too. Also at the bigger races 3 motor limit is great too. Eliminate the middle class, run stock or mod. Keep it simple...
I like it simple Stock or Mod.
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Old 11-25-2014, 08:56 AM   #505
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I say don't worry about handout motors for now. Create good, well organized events in popular locations at good tracks with some flexibility built in. Add more qualifiers or double/ triple mains for all if the turnout is low. Add practice with no more BS separation between ROAR run practice and track run practice. More people will come to better races.

ROAR needs to look at the IIC, Snowbirds, and the other popular races and make their races better than these. Obviously there are weak points to both that could be addressed. The same can be said on the regional level series as well.
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:06 AM   #506
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Isnt that what it used to be, only stock and mod? And there was a huge difference between the two.

New idea suggestion: back to two classes.

Stock: locked endbell, locked blinky esc, and only allow limited sponsored driver to run in this class. This is to keep it accessable to the average racer. And to keep a national title within a reasonable reach.

Mod: Wide ass open. Battery size, motor size, esc type. Whatever. Let the driver decide level of power. Only exception is tracks hold the ability to limit battery voltage and motor wind as they see fit for safety due to the size of smaller tracks. This coukd be something posted online so there are no suprises for drivers.

Now this may rub some people the wrong way because "I cant run the same stuff at different tracks." This is a BS argument. If your willing to travel to different tracks, then you should
1. Be willing to look up info on those tracks before getting there. This is (late) 2014 use the dang internet. Look the track up and dont show up blind and suprised that things arent like your home track. I remember having to look in the back of RC Car Action to get a tracks phone number and hope they answered to give info.
2. Be willing to get the appropriate equipment for that track. This a racing hobby. This isnt arts and crafts, or Call of Duty. You have to spend a little $$$ every now and then. If you want to travel to a track, respect that tracks rules instead of whining.

The biggest thing is bringing back a true stock class would help tremendously.
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:17 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by theproffesor View Post
Isnt that what it used to be, only stock and mod? And there was a huge difference between the two.

New idea suggestion: back to two classes.

Stock: locked endbell, locked blinky esc, and only allow limited sponsored driver to run in this class. This is to keep it accessable to the average racer. And to keep a national title within a reasonable reach.

Mod: Wide ass open. Battery size, motor size, esc type. Whatever. Let the driver decide level of power. Only exception is tracks hold the ability to limit battery voltage and motor wind as they see fit for safety due to the size of smaller tracks. This coukd be something posted online so there are no suprises for drivers.

Now this may rub some people the wrong way because "I cant run the same stuff at different tracks." This is a BS argument. If your willing to travel to different tracks, then you should
1. Be willing to look up info on those tracks before getting there. This is (late) 2014 use the dang internet. Look the track up and dont show up blind and suprised that things arent like your home track. I remember having to look in the back of RC Car Action to get a tracks phone number and hope they answered to give info.
2. Be willing to get the appropriate equipment for that track. This a racing hobby. This isnt arts and crafts, or Call of Duty. You have to spend a little $$$ every now and then. If you want to travel to a track, respect that tracks rules instead of whining.

The biggest thing is bringing back a true stock class would help tremendously.
Two classes is a good idea. But looking at the popular and well attended races, this does not seem to be what people want.

And no reason for modified to be wide open - there is nothing wrong with it now in terms of specs, power, and performance. You let is go wide open it will become even less popular.
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:28 AM   #508
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Im am refereing tw two types of motor/power classes. I understand at larger races over 40 and pro/sportsman classes are popular. These coukd easily be blended intk the stock/mod. IE over 40 is going to be an over 40 stock. And sportsman should be stock. Mod should be the elite class for the elite racers, and those who want to be an elite racer. Don't water it down with sportsman mod class just because someone wants a trophy but doesnt want to race a sponsored driver.

One of the reasons there are so many classes at races now is there are just a crapton of chassis types out there, and there is really only 1 powerplant type. In offroad everyone escentially runs mod. And on road its all 17.5. So the only way to seperate is to brake down into pro/sportsman/old guy classes.
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:44 AM   #509
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One of the major downsides I could see would be that with a bidding war usually brings a reliability factor and quality factor. Companies WILL cut corners so they can get their motor out there. So when you end up with motors that are super heavy (affects car handling), cheap components (motors fail easier) and other issues.
Again a spec motor appears to work in Europe at the ETS races. They use one manufacturer's motor for their stock class.

If gearing was fixed too ( just like in Europe's ETS series ) , the motors wouldn't ( in most cases ) be pushed to the limit anyway. I think that's why they ( again , in europe's Wildly successful ETS series ) use 13.5 rather than 17.5, the power can be refined for drive-able power rather than run at the bitter edge like 17.5 with open gearing.

Hopefully a somewhat inexpensive device could be used at every track to ensure a motor turns a specific rpm within a tight window at a specific voltage. This would ensure performance control is good. I'm thinking under $100 per region. Not expensive.

Let's say ( as the professor suggested ) that all manufacturers are allowed to make this spec motor and it has to conform to a very tight spec.

One of the criteria to be the handout motor of choice at a ROAR natuonals, is that spot checks at each region show that the brand of choice has the most quality control and conforms to very tight performance standards too. This would limit how much manufacturers cut corners or try to create a motor that out performs another as they would all likely want to be that ROAR motor of choice.

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Old 11-25-2014, 10:11 AM   #510
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Trying to control a bunch of factors that can't be controlled is a waste of resources.

Some are looking at this in the wrong light. We need to step back and ask ourselves what will it take to grow this hobby/sport?

Customers and racers have already proven that they want options and choices. Choices in motors, choices in classes, choices in events. We need to learn from this and stop taking the stance "We know what's best for you, even if you don't know yet."

We need to look at and learn from 1:1 racing and see what's worked for their racing, and what hasn't.

Stock racing is in a pretty decent place at the moment, but surely can be improved upon. But it's going to take a racing sanctioning body, racers AND the manufacturers to work together in order to improve it.

Problems in on-road may not be problems in off-road. The last big surge in r/c was the Traxxas Slash... On-road can certainly benefit from such a model. Surely a manufacturer can do this if they felt the customer/racer base would support in a similar fashion.... I honestly thought WGT would have done this when it came out. I miss Pro10 pan cars with rubber tires... Showing my age here lol

Pan cars are somewhat easier to tune than today's TC cars. They're simpler, less parts and far less intimidating than a current TC car. They're also cheaper to manufacturer so perhaps a "growth" class could be in the discussion.

Simple car, simple bodies, simple spec type tire, etc etc

On-road is a lot of fun, but we must all be honest with ourselves and realize that to lure in the new racer base we must appeal in the same way the slash did...The cars must represent something seen in 1:1. F1 has the potential but the cars are bit hard to enjoy off the track... Think bigger tires, higher ground clearance, etc.
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