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Old 11-21-2014, 07:36 AM   #421
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We are all in wish list mode so the ideas are flying, and that is good. A few more things to think about. I think we are all looking at this from the end user perspective. We need to also hear/learn from the manufactures what their gripes are with roar. The Trinity D3.5 story has been beaten to death, but I am sure there are other industry partners/manufactures that are frustrated. I would bet some have opted to not sent their products for approval to simply avoid the headaches. Now, I don't know if anyone from any company will come here and discuss this. The next roar team should be listening to manufactures as well.

To expand on what Ian posted above. It might help to have quarterly submission dates for product approval. If there is only one submission date per year and a manufacture product misses that date. They miss out on a lot of time waiting a year to submit again. With the speed that new products can come to market now our ideal roar wants to be receiving submissions. More submissions mean more revenue for roar, more participating manufactures and more a diverse approved products.

Snowy.

IFMAR and EFRA, I recall only allow submissions once a year.
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Old 11-21-2014, 08:22 AM   #422
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Offroad took a progression over the last few years. 2wd SCT was the entry point. Those guys have moved on to 4x4 sct and 1/8th electric. The 2wd SCT was a much more affordable entry point. The 1/8th electric cars are now becoming that entry point more with RTR kits. This may get offroad into the same scenario where onroad is unfortunately. To be more specific, an affordable entry point which targets the youth. Maybe I am wrong, but take a look at the age groups in the onroad scene.


I agree with this to an extent. However I do remember almost everything being more expensive 23 years ago. And what hasn't actually gone down in price has stayed the same price, which means with inflation, is cheaper. On road has low entry cost as well. There are multiple sub $250 kits on the market.

I think the problem lies more in a realistic novice class. 17.5 with only novices is not a novice class. Thats why VTA is a better option (only bc of motor size). But then there are those that dont like the tires and bodies, they want GT style or TC style. To me a novice class could be any chassis/wheel/tire with a 25.5 motor. When the individual gets to where they run consistant laps, the RD moves them into the appropraite class.

I am trying to get a friends 15 year old interested in the hobby. For the next couple of races he is attending, he is renting one of the tracks TT-01's. If he likes it, his parent will drop the $500-$600 it will take to get started. It will cost that because he has absolutely nothing, not even a screwdriver.

Here is an area that ROAR could help in. Setting what a novice class whether on road or off should consist of. Maybe not specifically, but an outline or guidelines that track could follow. A new person could look up these guidelines on ROAR's website, and have a reasonable idea of what to expect from the track and what is expected of them. These people should also not be expected to be ROAR members before they can run. A reasonable amount time should be applied before they are expectd become members. Like maybe when they move out of novice.
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Old 11-21-2014, 08:40 AM   #423
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How much does ROAR charge for the approval of an item?
And how much does a track have to pay to host a national or regional?
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It varies on the item. Motors have a set fee, batteries are a set fee and speedo submissions are a different fee. They are all listed on the ROAR website as well. All the money for the inspections goes directly to the lab doing the inspections. ROAR does nothing except read the report from the lab and EXCOM votes on adding the item to the approved list. This usually takes 4-6 weeks for a vote to happen and get added.

The labs do a great job of getting things inspected quickly. They are also very good with their communication to the manufacture. This is something that has greatly improved since ROAR started using independent labs.

EA
Eric covered the first question fairly well. Tracks have to be ROAR affiliated to host a national. That cost is $35. The actual cost a track incurs in hosting a national event depends on what the track wants to make it. Do they invest in electrical upgrades, lighting, food vendors, hobby shop access, internet fees capable of sustaining video feeds, circus tents for pitting, air conditioning for pitting, garbage removal, hired help for the track maintenance or vacation time for those lending help, new paint, new piping, new carpet, etc. ROAR covers the cost of supplying the RMT for ruling, scoring, officiating, announcing, etc. Tracks do receive funds from manufacturers for sponsor advertisement in addition to fees paid to them as part of the entry fee. A lot of this information is covered in the national guidelines at http://www.roarracing.com/downloads/...guidelines.pdf.
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Old 11-21-2014, 08:43 AM   #424
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. . .

Here is an area that ROAR could help in. Setting what a novice class whether on road or off should consist of. Maybe not specifically, but an outline or guidelines that track could follow. A new person could look up these guidelines on ROAR's website, and have a reasonable idea of what to expect from the track and what is expected of them. These people should also not be expected to be ROAR members before they can run. A reasonable amount time should be applied before they are expectd become members. Like maybe when they move out of novice.
Good thinking. Perhaps issue a ROAR 'Provisional' (non-paying) membership for novices that can later convert to an active (paying) membership.

Then again, issuing a 'provisional' membership may tax ROAR's limited administrative support with too great a burden to keep up with? That, and will having a 'provisional' membership provide insurance protection under the ROAR umbrella?
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Old 11-21-2014, 08:51 AM   #425
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I agree with this to an extent. However I do remember almost everything being more expensive 23 years ago. And what hasn't actually gone down in price has stayed the same price, which means with inflation, is cheaper. On road has low entry cost as well. There are multiple sub $250 kits on the market.

I think the problem lies more in a realistic novice class. 17.5 with only novices is not a novice class. Thats why VTA is a better option (only bc of motor size). But then there are those that dont like the tires and bodies, they want GT style or TC style. To me a novice class could be any chassis/wheel/tire with a 25.5 motor. When the individual gets to where they run consistant laps, the RD moves them into the appropraite class.

I am trying to get a friends 15 year old interested in the hobby. For the next couple of races he is attending, he is renting one of the tracks TT-01's. If he likes it, his parent will drop the $500-$600 it will take to get started. It will cost that because he has absolutely nothing, not even a screwdriver.

Here is an area that ROAR could help in. Setting what a novice class whether on road or off should consist of. Maybe not specifically, but an outline or guidelines that track could follow. A new person could look up these guidelines on ROAR's website, and have a reasonable idea of what to expect from the track and what is expected of them. These people should also not be expected to be ROAR members before they can run. A reasonable amount time should be applied before they are expected become members. Like maybe when they move out of novice.
The line I bolded is a great idea and similar to what we do in the Region2 for offroad. We started a young guns class and it's pretty much run what they bring. We watch them as they progress and make a determination when they should probably move onto the regular classes. We did this for our ROAR series and while it has rotated among tracks, I have noticed those tracks are now keeping the class for their normal local events.

I also believe ROAR may be looking more at the 25.5 motor idea seriously.
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Old 11-21-2014, 09:02 AM   #426
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Good thinking. Perhaps issue a ROAR 'Provisional' (non-paying) membership for novices that can later convert to an active (paying) membership.

Then again, issuing a 'provisional' membership may tax ROAR's limited administrative support with too great a burden to keep up with? That, and will having a 'provisional' membership provide insurance protection under the ROAR umbrella?
There probably is a technicality for some reason or another that will not allow the insurance. They do offer one day insurance for most events outside of national events. As much as people state they would pay more for ROAR memberships, how many do not attend ROAR events because of that additional fee? ROAR is viewed in two opposing ways. Some days it's the organization that helps establish rules, etc. in a positive manner. Other days it is equivalent to a four letter words like a curse. I am sure the ROAR committee wants it to be referred to in the first example and not the second.

Dave Lee will probably enjoy this next question. He already stated what ROAR has to offer in one of his replies. My question is not so much what should ROAR fix, but what does ROAR need to sell that you want to buy? In a tangible world we live in, I am not sure insurance,rules and national championships are on the top of every kids christmas list. I hear the question why should I join ROAR thousands of times. What do you think you should get for $35?
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Old 11-21-2014, 09:17 AM   #427
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The line I bolded is a great idea and similar to what we do in the Region2 for offroad. We started a young guns class and it's pretty much run what they bring. We watch them as they progress and make a determination when they should probably move onto the regular classes. We did this for our ROAR series and while it has rotated among tracks, I have noticed those tracks are now keeping the class for their normal local events. . .
Good. A proven pilot program at the regional level. Perhaps then theprofesssors idea of a ROAR novice class and attendant membership could be managed and executed at the regional level. National would only need monitor it, thus spreading and lightening the administrative burden.
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Old 11-21-2014, 10:52 AM   #428
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It's all in the the driver ranking system that solves a bunch of issues regionally
and nationally. I will share the system with you later this evening.
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Old 11-21-2014, 11:20 AM   #429
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The line I bolded is a great idea and similar to what we do in the Region2 for offroad. We started a young guns class and it's pretty much run what they bring. We watch them as they progress and make a determination when they should probably move onto the regular classes. We did this for our ROAR series and while it has rotated among tracks, I have noticed those tracks are now keeping the class for their normal local events.

I also believe ROAR may be looking more at the 25.5 motor idea seriously.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this is a good idea, and a great stepping stone for those without any experience that are looking to get involved. I'd even be on board with adding a spec gear ratio to make the cars easier to control. Parts breakage would be minimized with the slower speeds, making the cost of entry smaller as well. Add a spec battery pack (5000 mah or less), and you might have a winning formula.
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Old 11-21-2014, 11:23 AM   #430
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Iv'e been thinking about something else also. I wouldnt mind a higher membership fee if I knew there was something that I would really get out of it.

But there are some that will get more out of it than others. Would there be any validity to a tiered payment system. If all your going to do is race at club level, lowest tier, add state races and othe special events, next tier, then add regional, then nats. Also since manufacturers profit from wins at larger races, have them pay a larger stake (the same for every manufacturer, dont want to show favoritism) when they enter a "team" at the nats or regionals.

To those that only pay the lowest tier, you cannot race in higher level races unless you upgrade your membership. You could upgrade on the spot if you wanted to race a higher level race. This could bring in extra funding because there are many that like club level racing and like what ROAR could provide. But those that want that national title, well its going to cost a little extra since the event that will give you that title cost a great deal more than a local club race to put on.
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Old 11-21-2014, 11:57 AM   #431
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Iv'e been thinking about something else also. I wouldnt mind a higher membership fee if I knew there was something that I would really get out of it.

But there are some that will get more out of it than others. Would there be any validity to a tiered payment system. If all your going to do is race at club level, lowest tier, add state races and othe special events, next tier, then add regional, then nats. Also since manufacturers profit from wins at larger races, have them pay a larger stake (the same for every manufacturer, dont want to show favoritism) when they enter a "team" at the nats or regionals.

To those that only pay the lowest tier, you cannot race in higher level races unless you upgrade your membership. You could upgrade on the spot if you wanted to race a higher level race. This could bring in extra funding because there are many that like club level racing and like what ROAR could provide. But those that want that national title, well its going to cost a little extra since the event that will give you that title cost a great deal more than a local club race to put on.
The driver ranking system addresses exactly what you are saying.
When I get off of work. I will post it. It's pretty cool.
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:11 PM   #432
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Sorry I stole your thunder
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Old 11-21-2014, 12:30 PM   #433
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25.5 , this i's where the manufacturer's would have to come in. I have not seen a ready to run with anything less than a 13.5. Most people (kids and adults ) that I've seen lately join the hobby have done so with a ready to run and to tell them they have to buy a new motor (and probably a esc too, cause the stock one is probably sensorless) right off the bat kind of ruins it and chase's them away before they even start.
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Old 11-21-2014, 01:20 PM   #434
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I personally think that originally 17.5 blinky was the beginners class. Now that so many have made vta the class of choice for newer racers then there is not a need for 2-3 stock classes. Time to do away with 17.5 both in tc and 12th scale and make 13.5 the class. This would also make the jump to modified much less intimidating for guys wanting to move up down the road.
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Old 11-21-2014, 01:48 PM   #435
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Iv'e been thinking about something else also. I wouldnt mind a higher membership fee if I knew there was something that I would really get out of it.

But there are some that will get more out of it than others. Would there be any validity to a tiered payment system. If all your going to do is race at club level, lowest tier, add state races and othe special events, next tier, then add regional, then nats. Also since manufacturers profit from wins at larger races, have them pay a larger stake (the same for every manufacturer, dont want to show favoritism) when they enter a "team" at the nats or regionals.

To those that only pay the lowest tier, you cannot race in higher level races unless you upgrade your membership. You could upgrade on the spot if you wanted to race a higher level race. This could bring in extra funding because there are many that like club level racing and like what ROAR could provide. But those that want that national title, well its going to cost a little extra since the event that will give you that title cost a great deal more than a local club race to put on.
I think a tiered system like that would mostly go to create the perception that ROAR is trying to milk its memberships for more money, and that's not a good perception. If you were suggesting adding a tier below the current one, that would probably just take revenue away (i.e. there'd be less revenue from people that would be joining/renewing anyway, and wouldn't do much to bring in new members). Otherwise, I don't see the value proposition for the member.

If it's about covering costs for larger races... that's why they have higher entry fees. It sort of takes care of itself, doesn't it? Requiring members that may already be grumpy about having to get a ROAR membership pay even moar to upgrade their membership to attend a state/regional/national would likely just hurt attendance, which is going in the wrong direction.

Many manufacturers are also directly paying some of the increased costs for larger races through sponsorship.

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