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Old 11-20-2014, 06:56 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by NITRO 540 View Post
How do you guys feel about having a regional and national driver ranking
system? I have been working on it this past season. I have it close to being finished?
Thoughts?
That'd get me all giddy!
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:00 AM   #377
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Telling people that they must have competed at the regional level in order to 'win' at the national level seems absolutely asinine.

The point of nationals isn't to find 'the fastest guy who made the A main at nationals but also attended regionals.' The point of nationals is to find the fastest guy on that day, for any given class. End of story. Then Why are they only held once a year. What you are saying is we should crown a champion just because they win one race a year? To me THAT is asinine!

What about those who don't have regionals (and are thus unable to attend due to circumstances outside of their control)? What about folks who don't have enough funds or vacation time to attend both events, and so choose to attend the more prestigious of the two (Nationals)? What about guys who already go to so many races that they can't attend one more?

We need to be removing hurdles to competition, not adding more of them. I think on-road racing is already strongest at the local and regional levels, so why sacrifice competition at the national level, when we already have incredibly low attendance at those races?No hurdles, everyone is still welcome to the race. The prestige of winning the ROAR National Race would still be a big deal, but you should reward the racer that makes the attempt to win week in and week out and attends the local level events.

This is also why we shouldn't start requiring qualification for Nationals. Maybe if we had A through ZZ mains and the race days were going to be 18 hours long, we should be worried about reducing attendance through a qualifying structure. Right now, though? We should be handing out free handies, courtesy of FJ, just to get people in the door.This is what I am trying to accomplish, raise interest in R/C racing. You HAVE to do that at the local level, not the national level. Which is the entire point of a regional.
I have been racing R/C since 1985 and used to attend the regional in my area and even used to travel to neighboring regions if my region didn't have one that year. The regional used to actually be a comparison bar to the racers in your region, to see what you needed to improve upon before you went to the Nationals, which used to have to actually turn people away and have waiting lists to enter.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:26 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by chensleyrc1 View Post
I have been racing R/C since 1985 and used to attend the regional in my area and even used to travel to neighboring regions if my region didn't have one that year. The regional used to actually be a comparison bar to the racers in your region, to see what you needed to improve upon before you went to the Nationals, which used to have to actually turn people away and have waiting lists to enter.
We don't have large enough attendance to be able to afford to turn people away right now, which is what would happen if you start making the barrier to entering Nationals higher. I believe that on-road is already more popular at the local and regional level than it is at the national level. By making attendance at regionals a prerequisite for winning nationals, you are essentially just going to hurt attendance at nationals because the folks who couldn't attend regionals will no longer go to nationals. People who go to nationals today, but don't attend regionals, likely have a good reason for doing so (time, money, etc.) It isn't like everyone will just magically find the vacation time and money to attend a race, just because it is now an extra prequisite. As such, trying to force those people to attend regionals in order to 'win' nationals will likely just hurt attendance at nationals, which is something we simply can't afford. Forcing prequisites upon people is never a good thing when trying to improve attendance, and I can see any sort of rule in this vein as being a hindrance far more than a help.

Unless, of course, you are saying that we should be willing to completely obliterate national-level racing for the sake of improving regional and local racing. I think you are going to have a hard time gaining traction with that. At this point, with the limited numbers we have in on-road today, I think focus should be on improving attendance at all tiers (local, regional, national) and removing barriers to competition.

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The point of nationals isn't to find 'the fastest guy who made the A main at nationals but also attended regionals.' The point of nationals is to find the fastest guy on that day, for any given class. End of story.
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Then Why are they only held once a year. What you are saying is we should crown a champion just because they win one race a year? To me THAT is asinine!
So then make it a season series, where the national champ is someone who performed consistently over the course of the season. Have the races at different venues across the US, and use a points system to track the overall most consistent performer. Crown them the national champion.

Hint: This won't work. The US is too big for this. Travel times are too great, airplane tickets are too expensive, and attendance will be low. It works in european countries because of shorter travel times, but it won't work here in the US.

As such, the only option you have is to use the current format, where the fastest guy on that day is crowned the national champ. I see no reason why nationals should be anything different, frankly, and I think adding further prequisites for 'winning' nationals will only hurt attendance.

We shouldn't be trying to kill national-level racing for the sake of improving regional and local racing, and the solution for trying to improve attendance isn't to add even more rules about whether you can compete or not.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:36 AM   #379
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I'm gonna have to agree with LoydLore on this one.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:43 AM   #380
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Attendance at Nationals is important, but not nearly as important to the hobby as local and regional. Nationals is only important to manufacturers and those that want entry into the worlds. So like > 3% in the U.S. If attendance at lower level races improves, it will (maybe not in the first year) inevitabely improve at the higher level races. Also how many actually attend the nats that aren't local or sponsored drivers that are contractually obligated to. There are some, but very few. And of those that arent sponsored or have attended a regional, how many are actually good enough to win on any given day. Maybe 3? So your worried about turning away less than a dozen people (how donthis hobby day in and day oit already), but more emphasis on lower level races could bring in numerous new poeple.
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:08 AM   #381
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Attendance at Nationals is important, but not nearly as important to the hobby as local and regional. Nationals is only important to manufacturers and those that want entry into the worlds. So like > 3% in the U.S. If attendance at lower level races improves, it will (maybe not in the first year) inevitabely improve at the higher level races. Also how many actually attend the nats that aren't local or sponsored drivers that are contractually obligated to. There are some, but very few. And of those that arent sponsored or have attended a regional, how many are actually good enough to win on any given day. Maybe 3? So your worried about turning away less than a dozen people (how donthis hobby day in and day oit already), but more emphasis on lower level races could bring in numerous new poeple.
First off, the number of drivers who attend Nationals who are actually contractually obligated to do so is less than ten, and is likely actually less than five. Just because you have a 50% or 70% sponsorship deal doesn't mean you are contractually obligated to attend Nationals. As such, nearly everyone who attends nationals does it either out of desire (rather than obligation), the prestige that comes from winning a national title, or the relative few who want to use it as qualifying for IFMAR worlds.

All of those guys who attend Nationals by choice are the people who would be impacted by making Regionals a prerequisite. My off-the-cuff estimate is that this would be at least 75% of the racers.

Aside from commenting on the dodgy math, I also want to state that I am all for improving attendance at local and regional races. I just don't believe that an increase in attendance at those races should come at the expense of reduced attendance for our national events, as would happen with the prequisite/qualifier proposals that have been floating around.

Improve attendance at local and regional races by improving the quality of races that are offered, improving the marketing and communication for local clubs and races, and offering classes that are more appealing to current racers. Making it more difficult to attend nationals isn't going to improve local racing, it is just going to piss off the guys who are already dedicated to racing and likely already heavily involved in their local racing. Improving attendance needs to come from the bottom up, and from trying to bring new people into the hobby.
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:48 AM   #382
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I take a day off from work, avoid RC Tech, and thought I would come back to an outline for a new organization with a list of 25 volunteers to make it work.

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There must surely be another Write-in candidate for membership to submit that would be a viable option, be supported by a vocal base and frankly have voting majority that is rather turn-key.

I may end up under a bus for this but Rick Hohwart http://www.rctech.net/forum/members/...wart-8926.html has a closer pulse to the racer, has more industry experience than most others and is frankly actively + transparent. It's good to vent about Eric's situation and how yet again ROAR needs a good clean up and media training! There is an opportunity to get someone into the seat that with this vocal base can move the organization closer to its members.
It is inevitable that I become ROAR president some day. When I am done racing seriously and can use that time to do it properly, I will. I would even consider it now but I am not eligible. But thanks for the consideration.

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O.K I have sat and read all of this from the beginning. It seems to me that nothing can or will be done about the decision that R.O.A.R. has made, so if you want change ,play the game they want. Let this go...for now, Eric If you want to be president and I agree ,you would be a breath of fresh air for this organization, keep your membership current and the next cycle that comes around for a vote we can do it all over again...by their rules, in their own back yard.
We won't get change posting on here but we can work now to insure that the person we all seem to want to lead this organization WILL BE ELECTED by their rules in the next cycle.
It is time for a change. R.O.A.R. didn't get this way over night and we won't change it that fast either.
Even the greatest journey starts with one step.
IMPROVISE...ADAPT....AND OVERCOME!
Just my opinion.... folks just an observation.
now back to your regularly scheduled postings
This is a sensible suggestion.

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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
True, but those are guidelines. And I'm a ROAR member, yet I still have ZERO say in the matter since they choose to rig elections, Approve stuff like speedo software, then disallow it, approve a motor, then ban it, etc. They can't properly execute their own rules, and bow to manufacturer interests. Sad really....
I will fully endorse you in the position of ROAR technical Director. You know the problems and issues and have the experience to set ROAR down the right path.


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Originally Posted by losi888 View Post
1. They can improve by getting more people involved. Similar to what the TCS series has done for Tamiya. Have a funster class.
2. Change the class structure;
A. Get rid of 17.5 and go to 21.5 or even 25.5 for the lowest class. This will make 13.5 class grow
B. Get rid of VTA there is all ready a set of rules that USVTA has, no need to reinvent the wheel
C. At national events spec motor classes should be handouts (similar to the ETS)
3. Get feed back from the racers. Honor what the majority of the racers want, when there is different interpatation of rules.
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4. Continue to simplify the rule book by removing antiquated text. Consider splitting the rule book into a general section, an onroad section, and an offroad section. I recognize retaining consistency across multiple revision controlled documents is challenging, but splitting the book is something to consider.

5. Create a common place for members to express suggestions, concerns, etc. Possibly a suggestion box on the ROAR site? Could make it anonymous. Maybe the ROAR forums is this place. I believe the forum is locked to member posts, but am not certain. I recall attempting to sign up for the forum so I could post, but found it cumbersome and believe it was locked.

6. Streamline tech inspections at National events. I recognize the inspectors are volunteers (I believe at least) and there is much difficulty tearing down motors (I have elec. experience only), but the process could be streamlined. Consider creating a quick reference sheet to tell attendees what will be expected for tech and email that to them upon signup.
Co-competition directors! You guys would make great volunteers. If you don't volunteer for ROAR I look forward to your work in the "new" organization.

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Originally Posted by chensleyrc1 View Post
1. Streamline the classes. There is no need to have 11 different classes at a race. That may bring us back closer to the mod/stock days of a-z mains. I know I would be more proud of finishing in the C main of a class with an O main, than finishing in the A with only one main behind you.
2. Use a semi-regional race to seed the regional.
3. Use the regional results to seed the nationals.
4. Require attendance at the regional to qualify for the National.
5 At the National, only the racers who attended the Regional can be able to win the National. Any racer can race in the class. For example, Joe can finish first in the main and win the race, but the top finishing racer that attended a regional ,Pete, places 3rd and is the actual National Champion.

To me, this puts a emphasis on racing at the local level, instead of just practicing for the "big" race and hoping your ducks and stars are aligned that weekend.
We are talking about R/C racing here. The more classes you have the more winners you have. You would appreciate this- ROAR runs a single 1/8 nitro buggy class at the Nats meaning everyone runs together while one of the largest non-sanctioned nitro races runs 1/8 buggies divided into Sportsman, Open, Pro, Over-40, and Over 40 Pro classes . Racers WANT a lot of classes. The good old days are not coming back.

The regional system can work but like anything else, it takes man power. But this is where the people who don't like what ROAR is dong can make a difference on the regional level.
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:50 AM   #383
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Are there any incentives offered for attending or winning a Regional? How about winner of class X gets free entry for that class at Nationals? Or if you place 2nd or 3rd you get 50% off.

Make Nationals a 3 day race. Optional setup and early tech Thursday, practice and tech Friday morning, qualifiers starting Friday evening and all day Saturday. Mains on Sunday, go home.
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:56 AM   #384
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I take a day off from work, avoid RC Tech, and thought I would come back to an outline for a new organization with a list of 25 volunteers to make it work.
You're looking in the wrong place.
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:21 AM   #385
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Imagine this scenario :

The prize for winning a regional in stock class(s) is an all travel, lodging , entry fee expense paid trip to a two day National event. Spec sealed motors at both the regionals and at the nationals for the two stock classes ( stock 12th stock TC ). Hand out motors at the nationals. (. Regional entry fee is used for travel and entry fee expenses )

The result is high participation at the local level preparing for the regional ( triple A's to ensure it is a legit win ) which results in a HUGE payout of getting to go to nationals ( virtually free of charge ) to compete for a stock class national championship. Local club racing preparing for this race would thrive. ( this isn't a new concept, think about Tamiya race prize... Getting flown to Japan for winning the U.S. championship ... It seems to work )

Stock class entries for the nationals are limited to ONLY regional stock winners.
( if a regional winner decides they cannot go it defaults to 2nd,3rd place. Etc ) ( or perhaps 2nd and 3rd place from regionals can also attend nationals , but not so many that it turns into a three day event )

Mod class remains open for all at nationals.

Result: local / regional racing flourishes. Nationals are a very short two day event without long tech lines. A true national championship for stock and mod is awarded.

And mod might even be a little more popular than it is because it's the only open class.

Jake D.
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:52 AM   #386
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You're looking in the wrong place.
Then where do I look?
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:54 AM   #387
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I take a day off from work, avoid RC Tech, and thought I would come back to an outline for a new organization with a list of 25 volunteers to make it work.
.
Not quite, but Nitro_540's call for input spurred a lot of constructive conversation over the last couple days.

I hope we can remain on this positive course and continue to contribute new ideas for revitalization. Of course, as is true on the internet, arguments will probably not come to full resolution here. Ideas, however, are welcome and can be brought to the organization's attention for their consideration. I just hope they're listening. I trust that they are.

EDIT: Rick, syndr0me's interjections, while often times comical, don't always warrant a reply
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Old 11-20-2014, 10:15 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by samnelso View Post
Not quite, but Nitro_540's call for input spurred a lot of constructive conversation over the last couple days.

I hope we can remain on this positive course and continue to contribute new ideas for revitalization. Of course, as is true on the internet, arguments will probably not come to full resolution here. Ideas, however, are welcome and can be brought to the organization's attention for their consideration. I just hope they're listening. I trust that they are.

EDIT: Rick, syndr0me's interjections, while often times comical, don't always warrant a reply
And what makes you think they will actually do anything different now from what they have in the past? What makes you think they are actually listening rather than trying to appease all the people they have pissed off? Their election is a scam. Not just this time around, but times in the past as well.

Sure they are listening.
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Old 11-20-2014, 10:57 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Magnet Top View Post
Imagine this scenario :

The prize for winning a regional in stock class(s) is an all travel, lodging , entry fee expense paid trip to a two day National event. Spec sealed motors at both the regionals and at the nationals for the two stock classes ( stock 12th stock TC ). Hand out motors at the nationals. (. Regional entry fee is used for travel and entry fee expenses )

The result is high participation at the local level preparing for the regional ( triple A's to ensure it is a legit win ) which results in a HUGE payout of getting to go to nationals ( virtually free of charge ) to compete for a national championship (stock). Local club racing preparing for this race would thrive. ( this isn't a new concept, think about Tamiya race prize... Getting flown to Japan for winning the U.S. championship ... It seems to work )

Stock class entries for the nationals are limited to ONLY regional stock winners.
( if a regional winner decides they cannot go it defaults to 2nd,3rd place. Etc ) ( or perhaps 2nd and 3rd place from regionals can also attend nationals , but not so many that it turns into a three day event )

Mod class remains open for all at nationals.

Result: local / regional racing flourishes. Nationals are a very short two day event without long tech lines. A true national championship for stock and mod is awarded.

And mod might even be a little more popular than it is because it's the only open class.

Jake D.
Maybe I'm perceiving this idea from the wrong perspective, but I don't see this scenario helping the attendance at regional or national level competitions. First, attendance at Nationals for the classes with the strongest following carries a prerequisite of attending a regional event. Regional events might incur travel/lodging expenses, which might be enough to deter many participants from attending races held at the regional level. If there's diminished interest in competing at the regional level, the need for membership also diminishes. Fewer overall members translates to a weaker championship pool, which makes the National Championship carry less weight. Looking at the idea subjectively, 11-12 racers battling it out for a Stock title just doesn't seem to have the same level of excitement associated with an event of this perceived magnitude. This system also gives the impression of being exclusionary; an attribute on-road racing needs to avoid in its rule/class structure at all levels.

Opening the mod classes to all racers probably hurts attendance unless you have a strong local following supporting the venue hosting the event. Since mod classes generally have a much smaller following compared to spec classes, I'd expect attendance to drop in proportion to the number of spec racers compared against those running modified.

While this represents a plan for crowning a champion (which could work with a few tweaks, and seems logically sound), plans like these focus on the wrong end of the pyramid. Our biggest problem involves finding a way to build on-road racing from the bottom up instead of viewing the situation from the top down. Finding ways to recruit and retain new racers needs to be of paramount importance right now - we can sort out who "wins" once we have enough people fighting for the prize.
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Old 11-20-2014, 11:17 AM   #390
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And what makes you think they will actually do anything different now from what they have in the past? What makes you think they are actually listening rather than trying to appease all the people they have pissed off?
Because I have not been around long enough to become fully cynical and because I choose to believe.
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