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Old 11-19-2014, 10:23 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Chaz955i View Post
It probably got lost in my sarcasm but the way I see it ROAR is a perfect reflection of many of people posting on this thread. Rules are good when they are to my benefit, when they are not they can be ignored or manipulated. Neither group has any credibility. Speculation on my part but I bet a few posting here have a long history of bending the rules (cheating) which makes this thread just that much more special.

You are a smart guy and I tend to agree with most of the things you post. In this thread there have been some constructive thought, mostly saying lets take a step back, evaluate how ROAR plays the game and then beat them at it. Be above board, make sure all the details are met and don't leave it up to interpretation. It can be done and might actually produce leadership with a legitimate mandate. To me that is much more constructive than floating absurd conspiracy theories or talking about "old boys clubs" which seems to be code for "I can't construct an argument why they are disqualifying EA so I'll stick with worn out cliches".
I missed the sarcasm I rarely do that, lol.

I've been involved in this hobby for over 25+ years and this just falls in with "typical ROAR" procedures. I have always hoped things would change, but two decades have shown otherwise. They always find a loophole in the "bylaws" or god knows where else. Hopefully you're right, and we can finally overcome that.
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:30 AM   #347
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I missed the sarcasm I rarely do that, lol.

I've been involved in this hobby for over 25+ years and this just falls in with "typical ROAR" procedures. I have always hoped things would change, but two decades have shown otherwise. They always find a loophole in the "bylaws" or god knows where else. Hopefully you're right, and we can finally overcome that.
Agreed.
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:32 AM   #348
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If roar is so irrelevant why do large event use their rules?? It seems everyone wants roar to go away but at the same time they want to use their rules... how does that work??
Simple and you missed the point. Large events use ROAR rules because ROAR allows it which IMHO is a huge mistake but do not have the funds to legally battle.

Secondly if a large event is going to use ROAR rules, why not make it a ROAR sanctioned race? I think you know the answer to that question...
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:42 AM   #349
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An intelligent individual would never construe criticism as "hate speech".
You missed the post he was responding to, it's since been removed.
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:51 AM   #350
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Nitro, the only thing you can't get (of the comradory type stuff you mentioned) at a large non- RAOR club race or even larger national event such as The USVTA Nats or Psyco Nitro is a way to be eligable for the worlds. And except for the already 100% sponsored drivers that pretty much do this for a living and/or work for the company, nobody cares about trying to qualify for the worlds.

I have said before ROAR laid the ground work and we should be thankful for that. But, since it has no competition right now at the manufacturer and approval level, we are forced to use its rule set. It doesnt matter whether its a "ROAR" race or not. They set the dimension rules for the car, they set the tire (size) rules, they set the motor (manufacturer) rules, they set the battery (size) rules. We are following ROAR rules just by buying the equipment to start with. Even if a new org was to attemp to start, it would have to "borrow" heavily from ROAR and/or IFMAR to even be viable.
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:11 AM   #351
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Why don't you guys make a positive constuctive list how Roar can improve or
help this hobby?
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:43 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by NITRO 540 View Post
Why don't you guys make a positive constuctive list how Roar can improve or
help this hobby?
1. They can improve by getting more people involved. Similar to what the TCS series has done for Tamiya. Have a funster class.
2. Change the class structure;
A. Get rid of 17.5 and go to 21.5 or even 25.5 for the lowest class. This will make 13.5 class grow
B. Get rid of VTA there is all ready a set of rules that USVTA has, no need to reinvent the wheel
C. At national events spec motor classes should be handouts (similar to the ETS)
3. Get feed back from the racers. Honor what the majority of the racers want, when there is different interpatation of rules.
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:49 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by NITRO 540 View Post
Why don't you guys make a positive constuctive list how Roar can improve or
help this hobby?
This is a great suggestion.

I'll start.

ROAR Constructive Suggestions:

EDIT: added to losi888's list
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:50 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by losi888 View Post
1. They can improve by getting more people involved. Similar to what the TCS series has done for Tamiya. Have a funster class.
2. Change the class structure;
A. Get rid of 17.5 and go to 21.5 or even 25.5 for the lowest class. This will make 13.5 class grow
B. Get rid of VTA there is all ready a set of rules that USVTA has, no need to reinvent the wheel
C. At national events spec motor classes should be handouts (similar to the ETS)
3. Get feed back from the racers. Honor what the majority of the racers want, when there is different interpatation of rules.
4. Continue to simplify the rule book by removing antiquated text. Consider splitting the rule book into a general section, an onroad section, and an offroad section. I recognize retaining consistency across multiple revision controlled documents is challenging, but splitting the book is something to consider.

5. Create a common place for members to express suggestions, concerns, etc. Possibly a suggestion box on the ROAR site? Could make it anonymous. Maybe the ROAR forums is this place. I believe the forum is locked to member posts, but am not certain. I recall attempting to sign up for the forum so I could post, but found it cumbersome and believe it was locked.

6. Streamline tech inspections at National events. I recognize the inspectors are volunteers (I believe at least) and there is much difficulty tearing down motors (I have elec. experience only), but the process could be streamlined. Consider creating a quick reference sheet to tell attendees what will be expected for tech and email that to them upon signup.
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:57 AM   #355
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Get regional directors more active and accountable, consistently hold regional events, train/equip all regions to have said events without the need to have long distance travel of ROAR representatives for these sanctioned events.
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:08 PM   #356
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I’ve been reading and participating in this thread for the past week and had to take a step back and soak it all in. I have read all sorts of comments about how ROAR is broken, ROAR needs to be fixed, ROAR needs to admit it needs help, ROAR should work with racers and manufactures more, ROAR isn’t promoting the hobby, ROAR isn’t bringing new people in to on-road racing.. etc.

These are mostly generalized comments that don’t adequately describe a specific problem and even more so don’t provide any idea or hint at a solution, they are just complaints. If you were to start a new organization, how would you address these, so it too would not be broken?

I sat down with a fellow racer yesterday and talked about it .. (credit goes to him for some of these ideas).

ROAR is a rules and governing body for competition racing. ROAR is not irrelevant. Every big non-ROAR event including IIC, Snowbirds, US Indoor Champs, Mile High Indoor Champs, Canadian Nationals either copies ROAR’s list of approved motors, batteries, bodies, and esc’s or just straight up says must be ROAR Approved. This in itself is enough to show relevance in a sanctioning body at least.

ROAR is not a marketing machine, nor do I believe they should be. You are not going to see TV commercials sponsored by ROAR. They are not going to drag kids and parents to your local track and promote racing at your club/track. A ROAR representative is not going to hand out flyers at the mall advertising your club/track. That is up to you to do! The next time someone that has an interest stops by your track, introduce yourself, help the new guys out at the track, and give up your race day to help a new or fellow racer win his heat/main. Those actions will pay dividends. It really is up to local tracks and clubs to drive their own membership, decide what works for them in terms of class structure and drive interest. It starts in your own backyard, not at a national level.

Now since ROAR is a rules and governing body – there focus should be on – the organization itself, establishing rules for competition racing, interpreting those rules in its members best interest, governing technology and most importantly being fully transparent in their processes and decisions which earns trust among racers and manufactures …

Here are some specifics where I feel they fall short … (most of it is communication and transparency)

The Organization –

I feel that every position in ROAR should be elected, no appointments by the president or vice president. If only one person runs for a position, then so be it .. but it is an equal chance for everyone to get involved. This should help eliminate the ‘good ol boys’ club appearance that ROAR perhaps has (where the perception is a person’s friends tend to be appointed with little to no qualifications).

The Rules

In certain cases rules are not exactly clear and must be interpreted for a given situation. In these cases, an A or B decision can be made. When this situation arises, I would like to see the voting members use common sense and keep this mind “what is the best decision for the members”. If the current leadership does not hold this as the highest priority, then they have forgotten who they represent and new leadership must be sought (I thought EA would have exceled at this)

In EA’s case, there was an A and B decision to be made, IMO the better decision was to allow a 20 year and current ROAR member to be put on the ballot. This does not mean he would have won, it means it would have given the members a choice between 3 candidates instead of 2 and more choice benefits the members as a whole.

Approvals –

What exactly is being checked in the independent laps? What document is given to the labs as a checklist? What are the numbers and results of these tests? Members would like to know .. the current organization is not transparent enough.

Is my motor on the list yet?

Approvals should be fully documented and accessible online the day an approval form for a motor/battery/esc/body is received. The process should be able to be tracked by any and all members or affiliates. Once an independent lab verifies that the item in question, and it meets the specification .. that item should approved without the need for any further vote! What is the purpose of voting on an item when it has passed technical expectation? This adds unnecessary delays and allows the perception of some kind of “bias” – personal or whatever towards the item.

Nationals –

Be professional, be prepared, be on-time (early is better). When the doors open for racers on the first day of Nationals I would expect ROAR to be there, have their equipment setup and ready to go. Review the approval lists ahead of time and have them in one place (not ½ on a piece of paper and the other ½ on a laptop). Hire another knowledgeable person for the 1st day of tech to help balance the load. Communicate the tech process (tickets, appointments, whatever) before the event. People have practiced for months, traveled across the country and managed to be there on time .. I expect no less of ROAR for a National Championship Event.

Communication –

This is huge .. Communication and Transparency from top to bottom .. builds trust.

I should have one place to look for all information.. not ROAR.com, Facebook, Instagram , Personal Pages, etc. ROAR has a website and should utilize it better..

Where is the information about ROAR leadership (talking more than an email address)? What are their backgrounds and qualifications? Most importantly what is their plan for this year? Next year? When do they meet? What items are up for discussion? Where are the Meeting Minutes? What do they do exactly? What are the exact processes manufacturers follow to get approvals?

Regions –(great idea from a friend)

Make them relevant again .. qualify for Nationals. Generate excitement and pride in your region.


Yes .. the organization needs to change .. the status quo is no longer enough.
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:10 PM   #357
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Added slakr to list...

losi888
-They can improve by getting more people involved. Similar to what the TCS series has done for Tamiya. Have a funster class.

-Change the class structure;
A. Get rid of 17.5 and go to 21.5 or even 25.5 for the lowest class. This will make 13.5 class grow
B. Get rid of VTA there is all ready a set of rules that USVTA has, no need to reinvent the wheel
C. At national events spec motor classes should be handouts (similar to the ETS)

-Get feed back from the racers. Honor what the majority of the racers want, when there is different interpatation of rules.

samnelso
-Continue to simplify the rule book by removing antiquated text. Consider splitting the rule book into a general section, an onroad section, and an offroad section. I recognize retaining consistency across multiple revision controlled documents is challenging, but splitting the book is something to consider.

-Create a common place for members to express suggestions, concerns, etc. Possibly a suggestion box on the ROAR site? Could make it anonymous. Maybe the ROAR forums is this place. I believe the forum is locked to member posts, but am not certain. I recall attempting to sign up for the forum so I could post, but found it cumbersome and believe it was locked.

-Streamline tech inspections at National events. I recognize the inspectors are volunteers (I believe at least) and there is much difficulty tearing down motors (I have elec. experience only), but the process could be streamlined. Consider creating a quick reference sheet to tell attendees what will be expected for tech and email that to them upon signup.

slakr
-Get regional directors more active and accountable, consistently hold regional events, train/equip all regions to have said events without the need to have long distance travel of ROAR representatives for these sanctioned events.
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:13 PM   #358
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Great stuff guys. Keep it coming.
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:31 PM   #359
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I really agree with ByteStream in the transparency portion and ROAR representatives need to be more active with participation in updating their agenda, goals, progress, meetings, decisions, testing practices/results Etc. (all ROAR officials will need to have a thick skin and a cool head)
And as mentioned previously it should be at a central location (like their website and/or forums) and should be accessible to both members and non members (at least for viewing purposes, in case they are on the fence about membership)
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:35 PM   #360
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Glad to see some positives coming out now. Now hopefully ROAR will take some of this and put it to good use for the future!

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