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Old 10-21-2014, 05:44 AM   #31
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I agree with most except the VTA sentence.

VTA with a 25.5 is SLOW. It just is. A Team Scream 27T will eat UP a 25.5 like nothing. I can't race that. I just can't understand why we can't moves stock to 13.5 and VTA to 17.5.
Far too many broken cars, that's why... I watch people destroy 17.5 powered TCs with frightening regularity - raise the power levels to 13.5 and you'll kill the only electric on-road class with a loyal following.

Racers enjoy battling with their friends on the track, not making seemingly endless repairs to their equipment after a series of failed runs. While 25.5 racing might not seem all that attractive to you, it does offer more excitement since more drivers can competently handle a car at that speed. More competitors racing with you generally makes for a more enjoyable experience, and one of the reasons why VTA works.
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:02 AM   #32
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Some of that I have never heard of, but then I don't try and cheat.

So some of you experimentors out there, how bout this. In am effort to keep speed compairable, let look at 17.5 blinky vs 21.5 boosted. Both on a 2s TC. Run some laps with both and lwt us know the results. If times are comparable, we have to ask, why blinky.

From what I understand blinky was created to bring parity to the racing s
cene. It would seem that it hasin fact done the exact opposite. Imo the biggest reason Amercica has moved to 17.5 and away from mod is track size. Lap times are only marginally faster in mod. I think the second reason is laziness. We dont want to take the time find the right timing/boost combo for track. Just plug and play. Maybe the answer is to move away from blinky. It certainly wouldnt hurt my feelings any.
We've been down this road before - boost went away because (spec) racers found it complicated and intimidating. You want to run boost? Build a mod car and run all you want. Having tried mod racing for a few years, the downside for me involved the increased maintenance and tire bills; after a while I decided it wasn't worth the hassle, and went back to racing the slower classes.

Running mod on the typical tracks found in the US tends to have a very confining feel. If we had tracks that were better suited to today's Mod TC speeds (read - more open), you'd probably see a lot more racers give it a try. IMO, it has nothing to do with laziness, and more about drivers' comfort level with the amount of power on tap.
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:26 AM   #33
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I was meaning to move away from blinky with 21.5/17.5 motors still. Not getting into the "mod" motors. It would get rid of the motor wars. But wait, then companies like Trinity couldn't charge a premium for 5% motors. Or there would be no reason for all the motor tuning 3'rd party companies. It keeps getting ststed that North America is a small market. So we dont race mod, so what. I bet there are more tc's sold here for all of our "spec" classes than are sold in Europe. But since these classes arent raced at the worlds, then it doesnt matter.

If spec wasnt such a big deal, then was it worth it for trinity to sue roar. Of course it was. Spec racing is their bread and butter. Without it, and having "the" motor to get, they would be worse off than Novak. Bashers and VTA is the only thing keeping Novak afloat. When was the last time you heard Novak was "the" motor or ESC to get outside of VTA.

Going non-blinky with the higher turned motors (21.5/17.5) would still keep the speeds sain on the tight carpet tracks we typically run on, but still open things up for those that run on larger tracks. It would also eliminate the motor/ESC/battery wars that go on.
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:30 AM   #34
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Some of that I have never heard of, but then I don't try and cheat.

So some of you experimentors out there, how bout this. In am effort to keep speed compairable, let look at 17.5 blinky vs 21.5 boosted. Both on a 2s TC. Run some laps with both and lwt us know the results. If times are comparable, we have to ask, why blinky.

From what I understand blinky was created to bring parity to the racing s
cene. It would seem that it hasin fact done the exact opposite. Imo the biggest reason Amercica has moved to 17.5 and away from mod is track size. Lap times are only marginally faster in mod. I think the second reason is laziness. We dont want to take the time find the right timing/boost combo for track. Just plug and play. Maybe the answer is to move away from blinky. It certainly wouldnt hurt my feelings any.
21.5T boosted vs 17.5T blinky is almost identicle in speed.

Cheating software certainly exists I have seen it first hand.
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:36 AM   #35
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Racers enjoy battling with their friends on the track, not making seemingly endless repairs to their equipment after a series of failed runs. While 25.5 racing might not seem all that attractive to you, it does offer more excitement since more drivers can competently handle a car at that speed. More competitors racing with you generally makes for a more enjoyable experience, and one of the reasons why VTA works.
Agree with this x1000
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:44 AM   #36
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We've been down this road before - boost went away because (spec) racers found it complicated and intimidating. You want to run boost? Build a mod car and run all you want.
Blinky was a knee jerk reaction and a mistake, perfect example of ROAR getting it wrong.

Education of how to use dynamic timing would have been a much better way to go.

On the other hand hardcase lipos was the perfect example of getting it right.

Most of the rest of the world offers both blinky and boosted reduced speed classes so racers can choose what they want to run.
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:14 AM   #37
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Going non-blinky with the higher turned motors (21.5/17.5) would still keep the speeds sain on the tight carpet tracks we typically run on, but still open things up for those that run on larger tracks. It would also eliminate the motor/ESC/battery wars that go on.
Turn back the clock roughly 5 years, when boosted TC classes were the norm. 17.5 boosted TC was considered by many to be "The New Mod TC class". The only way I'd see this being a viable solution would be to spec both the total amount of boost and the boost rates to keep the speeds under control.

The spec equipment war would still exist - batteries will always be important in any spec class, and we'll always have to chase the latest and greatest. The main concern would be the second coming of the ESC wars, and my experience has been that buying a new motor every month is a little cheaper than chasing the latest ESC to hit the market every several months.
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:31 AM   #38
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Turn back the clock roughly 5 years, when boosted TC classes were the norm. 17.5 boosted TC was considered by many to be "The New Mod TC class". The only way I'd see this being a viable solution would be to spec both the total amount of boost and the boost rates to keep the speeds under control.

The spec equipment war would still exist - batteries will always be important in any spec class, and we'll always have to chase the latest and greatest. The main concern would be the second coming of the ESC wars, and my experience has been that buying a new motor every month is a little cheaper than chasing the latest ESC to hit the market every several months.
ESC software hasn't changed in regards to dynamic timing control after 3 months since it was introduced.

Even if there was new software you can update the ESC no need to buy a new one.

As for boosted being close to mod. I ran 13.5T boosted for years and it is heaps slower than mod. The throttle control, feel and power output is totally different.
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:37 AM   #39
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Yes but 5 years ago boosted ESC's were in their infancy. Now that the technology has matured, they (computer programable ESC's) are on a fairly even playing field. It has really now come down with ease of adjustment; box vs phone/tablet vs laptop. I dont see an ESC war starting back up. As far as batteries, there would be some competition, but not like now. Mod runs shorty packs with less weight and Mah than those batts run in 17.5. Most guys put 2500 or less back into a 7200 pack. They just need that high mah and c rating to keep voltage up for a whole race. If blinky wasnt being used, then batts wouldnt be nearly as important. I do agree that blinky will prob never go away, and that non blinky would ever happen.

As far as boost being difficult to set up. That will pass. Lazy Americans will let a "pro" find a good set-up and copy it. And that ESC will dominate. Thats what the war will be. Just like how Xray dominates the club scene. Its a great car all around, but from 17.5 to USGT to VTA, new drivers will pay the premium price not just for a durable car, but one they can do very little work to in order to get running. Just copy a set-up and not worry about it. Thats a good and bad thing and can be argued at a different time.

If blinky went away, there would be a learning curve, but it would quickly smooth out.
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:50 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by oeoeo327 View Post
Far too many broken cars, that's why... I watch people destroy 17.5 powered TCs with frightening regularity - raise the power levels to 13.5 and you'll kill the only electric on-road class with a loyal following.

Racers enjoy battling with their friends on the track, not making seemingly endless repairs to their equipment after a series of failed runs. While 25.5 racing might not seem all that attractive to you, it does offer more excitement since more drivers can competently handle a car at that speed. More competitors racing with you generally makes for a more enjoyable experience, and one of the reasons why VTA works.
Here is my reason why I say the blinky classes like VTA and say a 21.5 LM class are broke. You can physically time the motor. I would really lock the spec classes down to blinky and a fixed timing motor, kind of the way the old stock classes were. The timing is the game when the motor tuners can win, especially in a spec class were the speeds are so close, gaining 5 feet down the straight is a big deal in that class, trust me I am on the wrong end of that one right now. If all we had to do is worry about gearing the class would be great and you dial in the gear to the track. It would also be easier for newbies to understand to, drop in x brand motor and get my roll out to be Y and I am good and spot on with everyone else.

The brushless motors seem to react funny to timing changes to, from my limited experience so far, but that is another discussion lol
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:54 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by oeoeo327 View Post
Far too many broken cars, that's why... I watch people destroy 17.5 powered TCs with frightening regularity - raise the power levels to 13.5 and you'll kill the only electric on-road class with a loyal following.

Racers enjoy battling with their friends on the track, not making seemingly endless repairs to their equipment after a series of failed runs. While 25.5 racing might not seem all that attractive to you, it does offer more excitement since more drivers can competently handle a car at that speed. More competitors racing with you generally makes for a more enjoyable experience, and one of the reasons why VTA works.
My local track doesn't really follow any rules per say. We do limit it to 2s lipo and BSR XX pink tires, but that's about it.

I run a old ( but hopped up ) TA04 against some nice Xrays and Spec R's.

The actual run down is 2 TC6's, 2 sakura's, 2 spec R's 2 Xrays one Tc4 one Hotbodies and my Ta04.

The Spec R's are the only cars that break. We run everything from 10.5's to 13.5's. I run a 13.5T myself. We are all running close, with myself and the Hotbodies guy fighting for the win week in and week out.

I think the quality of car has gotten worse. People wanting to make a chinese car as durable as a Japanese or American built car. Ain't going to happen.

The difference between a 17.5 and a 13.5 on most tracks is not going to be noticeable IMO.

You can definitely tell when VTA car gets out there though. Rolling road block.
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Old 10-21-2014, 08:06 AM   #42
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Here is my reason why I say the blinky classes like VTA and say a 21.5 LM class are broke. You can physically time the motor. I would really lock the spec classes down to blinky and a fixed timing motor, kind of the way the old stock classes were. The timing is the game when the motor tuners can win, especially in a spec class were the speeds are so close, gaining 5 feet down the straight is a big deal in that class, trust me I am on the wrong end of that one right now. If all we had to do is worry about gearing the class would be great and you dial in the gear to the track. It would also be easier for newbies to understand to, drop in x brand motor and get my roll out to be Y and I am good and spot on with everyone else.

The brushless motors seem to react funny to timing changes to, from my limited experience so far, but that is another discussion lol
Fixed timing doesn't work with sensored brushless motors. It was tried but there is too much manufacturing variation. Removing the variation hasn't been feasable at a reasonable cost and it can easily be tampered with.

Adjustable can timing is no biggy.
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Old 10-21-2014, 08:12 AM   #43
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Your mixing apples and orangees. I am compairing brushed 6cell nimh to brushless 2s lipo. Of course a brushed is faster with lipo. The voltage is higher and the wieght is lower.

I will agree that there is more a speed difference within a spexc class than there used to be. But spending money isnt the same as cheating. But people spent money in the brushed days too. One run super tuned motors, team driver only matched cells. Keeping motors in liquid nitrogen or dry ice buckets until race time. Just solder and go. Difference is now not as many can afford it and yes there are lotsnof other things to do. Kids werent on playing xboxes and playstations in the late 90's and early 2000's like they are now. As for our own hobby we had more club racing and less "events" especially in offroad. Now it seems at least once a month, there is some sort of big race within a few hour drive that everyone wants to go to so the club scene is dying.

Our hobby is not dying, not by a long shot. Racing though is. Most people new to the hobby are getting things like the short courses. Cheap, ready to go, and can go anywhere. You can thank the traxxas tmaxx for starting that lovely trend. While TC's look cool, they are too detailed for the modern got to have it easy and now mentality that our culture has become. Also our culture hates rules now. Somehow we have gotten to a point where "I'm a Merican, you cant tell me I cant run a 4600kv on 4s, I wanna go fast. Even though its dangerous as hell and will probably destroy something." So they dont race, they just bash. And bashing is alive and well.
You are pretty much nailing it with your posts in this thread.

No, our hobby is not dead. And less people turn up for races compared to "back in the day" , but as you have more-or-less put it, there are just sooo many other things for people to get involved with. The computer / internet era has provided a lot more outlets, especially for the average kid. Hell, I don't even have to go to a track if I don't want, I can do virtual racing at on the same course from home. I'd be willing to bet that within a certain age-group, a lot more people spend a lot more time at home than they did years ago. You literally don't need to leave the house anymore. Well, barely anyways.

And yeah, as someone that got started in the 80's, I don't miss the Brushed / C-cell era one bit. I gave up when the one run / weekend specials (motors & batteries) became the norm. Having to buy all kinds of crazy gear in hopes of keeping big capacity C-cell packs alive and well? Forget that. Constant motor tweeking, at the very edge of "magic smoke" territory? Forget that too. And also, yeah we have plenty of people that just want to bash with their 4s powered RTR vehicles, mostly short course.... it's fast, fun. and easy for them. Not like racing where you have to actually understand that it's about setup and strategy.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:13 AM   #44
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Fixed timing doesn't work with sensored brushless motors. It was tried but there is too much manufacturing variation. Removing the variation hasn't been feasable at a reasonable cost and it can easily be tampered with.

Adjustable can timing is no biggy.
True, that is why sensorless is a better option to get it more equal. It does make it also cheaper. There must be a non programable sensorless ESC to find with a good throttle control.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:21 AM   #45
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Sensorless will never be smooth enough for on road. And unless your on some pretty rough tracks with the larger off-road (1/8) its hard to be smooth on the throttle.
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