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Tamiya TRF419

Old 01-20-2016, 05:30 AM
  #2236  
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Originally Posted by J. Kłapacz
@rtypec can I ask for your setup?
The setup was literally a copy/paste of an old MR Setup from an early ETS race last year. Only difference is that I did not have an aluminum chassis and used Yokomo black springs for more response.
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Old 01-20-2016, 05:41 AM
  #2237  
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I changd from a long spell doing mod with a 4.5 over to doing some blinky racing with 17.5 last night and I found I now have way to much on power steering.
What would be some good changes to lose a bit of on power steering / make the car more stable coming out of a corner on power.
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Old 01-20-2016, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by vwvrt
I changd from a long spell doing mod with a 4.5 over to doing some blinky racing with 17.5 last night and I found I now have way to much on power steering.
What would be some good changes to lose a bit of on power steering / make the car more stable coming out of a corner on power.
A little more front droop is where I would start.
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Old 01-20-2016, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by niznai
Yeap, I reported the same problem with my TRF418 since new. My car had one full degree of difference left to right. Even changing the split blocks to the old one piece style (tried a few), there was still a difference in rear toe, so I think the holes are drilled in the wrong place in the chassis. I swapped the split mounts around left to right of course to check and the problem was the same. Changing to a Samix chassis didn't solve the problem so either the hole locations were copied from the original and the problem was carried on, or there is some other really fiendshly difficult to pinpoint cause.

I have a Hudy setup station and none of my other cars have this problem (these include a TA05R in which I use the same old style single piece blocks I used to check the TRF418).

I corrected the problem by moving to Xray old style split blocks (single screw; I had to drill a hole in the chassis for the locating pin) and it takes an extra 1mm shim on one side to even out the toe. Tamiya has gone down in quality of their manufacturing in my opinion.
Niznai did you swap out more components out towards the wheel? If your hinges were straight, I would then swap arms L to R, then swap out the wheel hubs. I agree, once you can repeat the error even when changing out all parts that make up the toe in, then it must be the chassis. I have started cutting my own chassis lately (I have a 416/7 hybrid 80mm wide, so I can reuse an old 416! first trial is Friday) so Id be VERY surprised if they copied a mistake from another chassis. they are design symmetrical in cad, so I really don't see how the chassis can be to blame. An A arm could be drilled badly, or the bottom hole in the hub could be out too. Hope that helps
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Old 01-20-2016, 07:40 AM
  #2240  
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Originally Posted by axle182
Niznai did you swap out more components out towards the wheel? If your hinges were straight, I would then swap arms L to R, then swap out the wheel hubs. I agree, once you can repeat the error even when changing out all parts that make up the toe in, then it must be the chassis. I have started cutting my own chassis lately (I have a 416/7 hybrid 80mm wide, so I can reuse an old 416! first trial is Friday) so Id be VERY surprised if they copied a mistake from another chassis. they are design symmetrical in cad, so I really don't see how the chassis can be to blame. An A arm could be drilled badly, or the bottom hole in the hub could be out too. Hope that helps
I've had the car for 2 years? Don't know, whenever they came out (bought new, so no worries there).

What haven't I done, I ask you. I even replaced the whole back end with the one in the TA05R, then I replaced the whole suspension with Xray suspension, trust me, I did everything you can think of and then some. I took all my suspension bits and put them on the TA05R car to check. Except for the split blocks, of course.

There are no two ways about it. Something is wrong either with the chassis, the suspension blocks or both. Call it poor manufacturing, incredible bad luck (maybe it's the only chassis that was cut on the day Mr Tamiya's favourite team lost the game?), whatever. Why was the other chassis (Samix) bad the same way? No idea. But for a small outfit in HK or Taiwan, I think this is the norm. The Samix chassis came without the layshaft (I bought the kit with the single piece motor mount and some other stuff, can't remember), so they had to send me one, waited another month for it to show up.

So there you go. A bit unlucky this purchase for me, but I like the car and stuck with it, and now it drives very well, with all its foibles, and it's actually reliable.

But back then, by the end I just lost any patience and sense, and I could see defects everywhere. I was losing my mind. I even bought the split blocks from Xray (new T4 ones, like the Durango) hoping they would fit the holes and I could run different inserts left to right to correct the problem. No go, holes are spaced differently. I don't have anyone here with a TD car to check the hole spacing and am not willing to invest any further. I felt like one of those guys with conspiracy theories in their heads. Until now, when it seems I wasn't as crazy as I thought.

Like I said, I am happy now with the fix I found, and I only regret I didn't think of it sooner. The Xray I took the bits off was sitting unbuilt in box since 2012. I would have saved some money and some mental health, but hey! You live and learn. Again, I am convinced that for us mere mortals the best insurance against crap cars (or freaky bad luck if you like) is to have as many as possible. And keep them. Never sell one. You never know when you'll need something they don't make anymore.

But the lesson here (for me at least) is that you need to think of all the possible problems and evaluate your purchases accordingly. The TRF418 is an orphan. Tamiya dropped pretty much everything to do with the car after they got our money. I tried to buy another set of split blocks to use different toe angles left to right and it's impossible. They don't exist! Tamiya simply canned development and manufacturing all the parts and stuff, and we were left high and dry.

From now on, I will only buy from Tamiya last year's car if it's proven to have no problems and I see they're still supporting and developing the car. The way I see it, Tamiya owes me a car.

Last edited by niznai; 01-20-2016 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 01-20-2016, 10:23 AM
  #2241  
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That would have wound me up no end.

Regarding the 418, lots / all the parts are available still. Including the split suspension blocks. Just search for tamiya 54171, all the way to Tamiya 54175 as they are used on a wide range of cars not just The TRF ones.
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Old 01-20-2016, 08:34 PM
  #2242  
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Where can I see the toe angle corresponding to the split blocks combinations?
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Old 01-20-2016, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by niznai
Where can I see the toe angle corresponding to the split blocks combinations?

https://www.tamiyausa.com/articles/s...e#.VqBhHOw8KnN
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Old 01-20-2016, 10:45 PM
  #2244  
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Thanks, I've got that, but am not sure how it applies to the split blocks. The names are also different (the splits are 1A, 1XA, etc).
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Old 01-21-2016, 01:24 AM
  #2245  
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Originally Posted by niznai
Thanks, I've got that, but am not sure how it applies to the split blocks. The names are also different (the splits are 1A, 1XA, etc).
The chart is still correct. The naming for the Tamiya split blocks is because they are reversible. So 1C can also be 1XC if you put the left one on the right hand side (and vice versa). It is Very useful, and I dont like how they changed this on the 419. I never had an issue with alignment with the original split blocks.
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Old 01-21-2016, 01:33 AM
  #2246  
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I think two screws is a recipe for disaster in such a place where proper location is vital. The newer Yokomo style blocks are addressing this issue, but in reality to get away with what is basically a cut price system, you need Xray level QC. Tamiya shouldn't have attempted it.
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Old 01-21-2016, 03:22 AM
  #2247  
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Originally Posted by niznai
Yeap, I reported the same problem with my TRF418 since new. My car had one full degree of difference left to right. Even changing the split blocks to the old one piece style (tried a few), there was still a difference in rear toe, so I think the holes are drilled in the wrong place in the chassis. I swapped the split mounts around left to right of course to check and the problem was the same. Changing to a Samix chassis didn't solve the problem so either the hole locations were copied from the original and the problem was carried on, or there is some other really fiendshly difficult to pinpoint cause.

I have a Hudy setup station and none of my other cars have this problem (these include a TA05R in which I use the same old style single piece blocks I used to check the TRF418).

I corrected the problem by moving to Xray old style split blocks (single screw; I had to drill a hole in the chassis for the locating pin) and it takes an extra 1mm shim on one side to even out the toe. Tamiya has gone down in quality of their manufacturing in my opinion.
Did you guys ever think of "forcing the suspension blocks to one side"? By that I mean, when you mount a screw in the suspension block, the block will move according to the direction you are screwing. So, clockwise. The suspension block will wander clockwise as well when fully tightening, not (always) noticable by eye. This is completely normal. I even have this on my Xray T4 and previous Capricorn and Tamiya cars.
You should move/hold/force/press the suspension block counter clockwise when tightening the screws, in order to keep it in place and not messing up your toe value. This is completely normal for blocks that do not have the centering posts, like Tamiya has.

If your car has more toe in on the right rear wheel, let's say 1 degree more than the left rear wheel, you need to correct it with only 0.5 degrees. Seems a lot, but it isn't. Loosen all the suspension blocks of the rear suspension, (in this case), tighten the screws from your RIGHT RF block while giving pressure towards the screwing direction. This will reduce toe in on your RIGHT side. To increase toe in on your LEFT side a bit, do the same, tighten the screws of your LEFT RF block and give pressure towards screwing direction. So now, by doing this you have reduced right rear toe in and increased left rear toe in.

Finally, do the same with the RR block. Press it counter clockwise, against the screwing direction, when tightening screws. This will again decrease right rear toe in and increase left rear toe in. As a result you will have equal toe in.

On some cars the chassis holes can be drilled a bit wider or could have worn out a bit, causing the suspension blocks to move when fully tightened. this will screw up your toe value.

Also, what I would always do, check hinge pins as well and rear hubs. Make sure these components are ok. If they are sanded or modified in any other way, just check if your method could not have influenced the toe value in any way.

Third thing: some bearings are not always ok. They give some slop on the axle, causing the axle to move a bit to one side or another. So when you attach the setup system, the slop between axle and bearing will actually cause the toe problem.

Also, detach the setup system and relocate it. Spin the wheel axle a bit and attach the setup system while putting pressure on the setup board, because, just like the suspension blocks, the setup system can also wander off a bit when you thighten the wheel nuts.
I have owned an Integy setup system for years, now I own a Hudy. Much better and much more accurate. But that is some other thing.

Make sure wheel hexes are ok, no debris behind the hex and pin and fully screwed on without any binding problems or any other problems.


Just take good care of the suspension blocks when tightening them. You can ädjust the toe value "by hand" in this way. I am quite sure this will help.

Last edited by Govert; 01-21-2016 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 01-21-2016, 03:27 AM
  #2248  
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I actually want to see split blocks made for the front forward suspension blocks and rear trailing of the rear suspension and incorporated in. Same design with 2 screws and the pin.

Car would be more rock solid than the shifting one piece parts. You get the one piece shifting a bit under driving forces and crashes and they bend eventually. So then you develop play more on one side of your suspension than the other and that is annoying to me. Every time between rounds you got to loosen the 2 screw and press down on the block with the car on its front or rear edge and then see how the play is and if even from left to right.

Someone is going to introduce this soon on their car I bet.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:01 AM
  #2249  
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Originally Posted by 190mph
I actually want to see split blocks made for the front forward suspension blocks and rear trailing of the rear suspension and incorporated in. Same design with 2 screws and the pin.

Car would be more rock solid than the shifting one piece parts. You get the one piece shifting a bit under driving forces and crashes and they bend eventually. So then you develop play more on one side of your suspension than the other and that is annoying to me. Every time between rounds you got to loosen the 2 screw and press down on the block with the car on its front or rear edge and then see how the play is and if even from left to right.

Someone is going to introduce this soon on their car I bet.

You can already use the split blocks at the back with Raceberry chassis.
This has been available for some time now, Bernd from Raceberry has been running his 419 with this setup
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:24 AM
  #2250  
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Originally Posted by Govert
Did you guys ever think of "forcing the suspension blocks to one side"? By that I mean, when you mount a screw in the suspension block, the block will move according to the direction you are screwing. So, clockwise. The suspension block will wander clockwise as well when fully tightening, not (always) noticable by eye. This is completely normal. I even have this on my Xray T4 and previous Capricorn and Tamiya cars.
You should move/hold/force/press the suspension block counter clockwise when tightening the screws, in order to keep it in place and not messing up your toe value. This is completely normal for blocks that do not have the centering posts, like Tamiya has.

If your car has more toe in on the right rear wheel, let's say 1 degree more than the left rear wheel, you need to correct it with only 0.5 degrees. Seems a lot, but it isn't. Loosen all the suspension blocks of the rear suspension, (in this case), tighten the screws from your RIGHT RF block while giving pressure towards the screwing direction. This will reduce toe in on your RIGHT side. To increase toe in on your LEFT side a bit, do the same, tighten the screws of your LEFT RF block and give pressure towards screwing direction. So now, by doing this you have reduced right rear toe in and increased left rear toe in.

Finally, do the same with the RR block. Press it counter clockwise, against the screwing direction, when tightening screws. This will again decrease right rear toe in and increase left rear toe in. As a result you will have equal toe in.

On some cars the chassis holes can be drilled a bit wider or could have worn out a bit, causing the suspension blocks to move when fully tightened. this will screw up your toe value.

Also, what I would always do, check hinge pins as well and rear hubs. Make sure these components are ok. If they are sanded or modified in any other way, just check if your method could not have influenced the toe value in any way.

Third thing: some bearings are not always ok. They give some slop on the axle, causing the axle to move a bit to one side or another. So when you attach the setup system, the slop between axle and bearing will actually cause the toe problem.

Also, detach the setup system and relocate it. Spin the wheel axle a bit and attach the setup system while putting pressure on the setup board, because, just like the suspension blocks, the setup system can also wander off a bit when you thighten the wheel nuts.
I have owned an Integy setup system for years, now I own a Hudy. Much better and much more accurate. But that is some other thing.

Make sure wheel hexes are ok, no debris behind the hex and pin and fully screwed on without any binding problems or any other problems.


Just take good care of the suspension blocks when tightening them. You can ädjust the toe value "by hand" in this way. I am quite sure this will help.
Yeah, done that

That was my initial suspicion.

I thought I put the car together wrong, so the second time I just did the screws finger tight (all four) and placed a piece of square tool steel along the two blocks, across the chassis and tightened the screws in turn, one half turn at a time. This method has always produced perfect results, aligning the blocks with each other and pulling the blocks down evenly between the screw holes.

Play/slop (in bearings, suspension, etc) has no impact I suspect because it develops evenly (why would one side wear more than the other anyway?). Either way, all my cars wear out but the toe readings are within the same range left to right (they become a sort of range rather than one value, but as long as the range is the same left to right, the car is fine).

And as you say, forcing one block sideways when tightening the screws is going to help, but this is just a band aid. Take even a small hit and the block will "slip" back in the "normal" resting position (i.e. where the screw heads rest centred in the countersunk section of the holes). I did this too, but just didn't feel right and long term is a hassle. It didn't manage to fully correct the problem either. There was still about 1 deg of difference in toe (left-right) because the holes don't allow more room to jiggle the screws around.

I think the best system (well, manufacturing defect-proof) is still the one used by Xray some time ago with the shims. That way, you can have the holes out by miles and still bring the toe back true.
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