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Old 11-17-2014, 05:04 AM   #361
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After having a closer look inside the R1 and a killshot (and from talking to Mr R1 in person this weekend - I finally get what you were trying to explain ). "Timing" is not "built in" at all. In fact it is retarded in the classical "timing" sense and there is something non-electronic that is occurring, throwing the motolyser algorithm off completely. How, I don't know, writing the motolyser guys now to see their take on it.

Posted my findings here.

As I said... still learning... learned even more over the weekend.
Sounds like Mr R1 is blaming the cow for bad milk when they allowed it to graze in the onion fields.

It's science people. I've had to tweak/trash more R1 sensor assemblies than any other motor I have touched. Non-centered, non-level, sensors mounted uneven...it's a QC problem. I was handed a never-been-run 21.5 recently that the pinion-side bearing fell out during disassembly! Sure, it makes installing a new bearing easier but it shouldn't fall out. Think about what that bearing is going to do once a magnetic force and load is applied.

Do you think the reading you get on the G-Force/Motolyser/[insert-tool-here] is any different than what your speed control is receiving?

Now, I do think R1 motors are great motors. My R1 17.5 clearly outperformed my TP Actinium 17.5, but only after finding a sensor assembly with a variation less than 4*. I will state that the R1 stator coils and rotors have been the most consistent throughout - with only 1 dud rotor out of more than a handful.

Torg - I grabbed one of your tear-down pictures to illustrate. What's wrong with the sensor at the red arrow location? (throw it in the scrapper!)
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R1 Brushless Motors (Roar approved) 17.5,21.5 & 13.5-slj4nvmh.jpg  
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:37 AM   #362
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Tested a r1 premium motor with a GeForce checker, super consistent readings for each phase compared to any other brand. When I say consistent I mean no variance for each phase.
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Old 11-17-2014, 10:43 AM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torg View Post
After having a closer look inside the R1 and a killshot (and from talking to Mr R1 in person this weekend - I finally get what you were trying to explain ). "Timing" is not "built in" at all. In fact it is retarded in the classical "timing" sense and there is something non-electronic that is occurring, throwing the motolyser algorithm off completely. How, I don't know, writing the motolyser guys now to see their take on it.

Posted my findings here.

As I said... still learning... learned even more over the weekend.
Just noticed that the image from rccaraction I used has the hall sensors inverted vertically compared to both motors I checked



Hall sensors are in-between wound wires on stator in image above at 0 deg timing.

But are aligned with them in the image below.


aaah the internet

Can someone point out a resource to me that explains this accurately?
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Old 11-17-2014, 11:14 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Jethroz View Post
Sounds like Mr R1 is blaming the cow for bad milk when they allowed it to graze in the onion fields.

It's science people. I've had to tweak/trash more R1 sensor assemblies than any other motor I have touched. Non-centered, non-level, sensors mounted uneven...it's a QC problem. I was handed a never-been-run 21.5 recently that the pinion-side bearing fell out during disassembly! Sure, it makes installing a new bearing easier but it shouldn't fall out. Think about what that bearing is going to do once a magnetic force and load is applied.

Do you think the reading you get on the G-Force/Motolyser/[insert-tool-here] is any different than what your speed control is receiving?

Now, I do think R1 motors are great motors. My R1 17.5 clearly outperformed my TP Actinium 17.5, but only after finding a sensor assembly with a variation less than 4*. I will state that the R1 stator coils and rotors have been the most consistent throughout - with only 1 dud rotor out of more than a handful.

Torg - I grabbed one of your tear-down pictures to illustrate. What's wrong with the sensor at the red arrow location? (throw it in the scrapper!)
Re ran my R1 21.5 on my Motorlyser at real 43* timing I got a 3.5 degree variation reading. However, that appears to be the average variation of each sensor from the average (3.5) because two poles were at ~40 degrees and one was at almost 48. Asymmetry reading was 15 (not good)
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Old 11-17-2014, 01:58 PM   #365
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Re ran my R1 21.5 on my Motorlyser at real 43* timing I got a 3.5 degree variation reading. However, that appears to be the average variation of each sensor from the average (3.5) because two poles were at ~40 degrees and one was at almost 48. Asymmetry reading was 15 (not good)
Your sensor assembly probably looks just like Torg's I posted. Let's say the lower yellow sensor is #1, clockwise to #2, then further to #3.

Making up numbers for the explanation...
Distance between #1 -> #2 = 10mm
Distance between #2 -> #3 = 8mm
Distance between #3 -> #1 = 12mm

With the endbell set so #1 is ~40*, #2 would be ~40*, but the distance between #2 and #3 is shorter - resulting in sensor #3 being far more advanced than #1 & #2. The secondary problem is the ESC having to wait longer for #1 to return due to the longer distance between #3 -> #1. At high timing settings, this is where the cog develops.

I'll see if I still have any of the bent/twisted/non-level ones left in my motor box and post some pics.

The super-junk rotor from my 1st 13.5 was waaaaay out there. First test on an i-Gauss made me change the battery thinking it might not be reading correctly. Second test on a different i-Gauss was similar, 3rd test on a RMS fell right in line with the i-Gauss readings. I think the Motolyser showed asymmetry in the 60's. That rotor now lives in the ceiling rafters at MRH.

Also, to clarify, the one sensor assy I found with <4* variation was the actual numbers, not the Motolyser's variation reading. I also observed the variation to actual advance discrepancy on the Motolyser and no longer rely on that reading. It's good for a quick glance/ballpark reading but the individual advance read from each pole is a little more accurate.
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Last edited by Jethroz; 11-18-2014 at 05:25 AM.
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Old 11-23-2014, 03:05 PM   #366
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I WANT TO PUT CERAMIC BEARINGS INTO MY R1 13.5 . Are they the same size as the D3.5?
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Old 11-24-2014, 04:19 AM   #367
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I WANT TO PUT CERAMIC BEARINGS INTO MY R1 13.5 . Are they the same size as the D3.5?
Yes, the bearings sizes are the same.
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Old 11-24-2014, 04:28 PM   #368
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Yes, the bearings sizes are the same.
Thanks!
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Old 11-25-2014, 08:28 AM   #369
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You guys are doing all these test on the R1 but are not saying which version of the R1 that you are testing. They have a new version Ultra Premium. How are they stacking up to these test?
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:52 AM   #370
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You guys are doing all these test on the R1 but are not saying which version of the R1 that you are testing. They have a new version Ultra Premium. How are they stacking up to these test?
Per This Post (two pages back)

Quote:
same parts:
rotor
endbells
bearing
sensor
I wouldn't expect much to be different from 1st gen through current if they are using the same components. Fix the extreme variations in mounting the sensors and the results may change. The change to the stator can realistically only be tested while under a load.
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Old 11-30-2014, 08:40 PM   #371
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OK, I got the answer on the bearing size, but the standard bearing tool I use on the other motors won't work for the small holes on the R1. How are they pulled and installed? Is there a tool? Thanks
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:08 AM   #372
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OK, I got the answer on the bearing size, but the standard bearing tool I use on the other motors won't work for the small holes on the R1. How are they pulled and installed? Is there a tool? Thanks
Anybody?
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:18 PM   #373
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Anybody?
What puller are you using? Some pullers were made specifically for certain motors. I will check the one I have to see if it works. Haven't pulled a bearing out yet with the tool because they all have seemed to just push out with my fingers.
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Old 12-04-2014, 09:33 PM   #374
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What puller are you using? Some pullers were made specifically for certain motors. I will check the one I have to see if it works. Haven't pulled a bearing out yet with the tool because they all have seemed to just push out with my fingers.
Thanks. I have an old puller, which works for the D3.5s and the old ones, but this R1 has a really small hole, nothing to push against to get the bearing out. Maybe you need to really heat up the aluminum to get it to expand, then get the bearing out. Thanks.
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Old 12-05-2014, 06:03 PM   #375
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Thanks. I have an old puller, which works for the D3.5s and the old ones, but this R1 has a really small hole, nothing to push against to get the bearing out. Maybe you need to really heat up the aluminum to get it to expand, then get the bearing out. Thanks.
I checked my puller and its like yours. I used it for trinity motors as well. Mine will not fit inside endbell to safely press up against outer bearing. Maybe using a smaller spacer might work but might damage bearing. I see no problem installing bearings though.
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