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Old 07-27-2014, 05:59 AM   #241
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I believe Cristian at RSD said these motors have 30 degrees built in so 30 degrees EB timing should be 60 degrees total timing. Based on that assumption I compared my RPM (STATOR) 21.5 kill shots at 60 degrees (one with the RPM rotor and one with the turquoise torque rotor), my Tekin 21.5 at 32.5 EB degrees as I ran it last week at the second EOS race in Austin TX, and my R1 21.5 with 30 degrees EB timing (60 degrees total). All the comparisons were done on my Fantom Dyno, which is an acceleration dyno that measures how fast the motor spins up a flywheel from a dead stop and measures amp draw, RPM, torque, and watts (power) at points in time during the dyno test.

By far the R1 has the highest RPM and most power (watts) of any of these motors. However, it also has some warts. It also has the highest amp draw - approx. 30% higher than the Tekin I ran last week that started going soft after 11 minutes in a 12 minute USGT main (it sucked up too much of a 6900 MAH 100C battery). Despite the talk about the acceleration of the R1, it actually accelerated slower than all the others and took ~1.25 seconds to catch the fastest of the others.

Geared correctly to take advantage of the top end, and for shorter races where batteries aren't a limiting factor, this should be a killer motor.

Last edited by John Wallace2; 07-27-2014 at 07:17 PM. Reason: Corrected Tekin EB timing to 32.5 & minor editing
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:16 AM   #242
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Just some feedback running the R1 this past weekend at the Jackson RC, NJ Tamiya TCS race. Used both in F1 and Mini with great results. Qualified 3rd and Won F1 and TQ and finished 2nd in Mini. Used my TRF101 and M03 chassis.

What i've learned in Mini - I turned the timing on the end bell down to 30 degree mark and the motor came off at 140 degrees after 6 minutes of hard racing. Jamie Hanson who won mini used the new M05v2 with a ThunderPower 21.5. I probably could have increased the timing to match Jamie's top end speed but the motor felt too good in the infield. Either way I was extremely pleased with the results. You can view the lap times on the Tamiya Website-Jackson race to see how consistent and competitive the motor is. A lot of guys in my area are rethinking their Killshot purchases.

Great motor!
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:10 AM   #243
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On our Tamiya USA sized track, the Thunderpower is a huge dog. Works good on carpet eh?
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:48 AM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Giordano View Post
Just some feedback running the R1 this past weekend at the Jackson RC, NJ Tamiya TCS race. Used both in F1 and Mini with great results. Qualified 3rd and Won F1 and TQ and finished 2nd in Mini. Used my TRF101 and M03 chassis.

What i've learned in Mini - I turned the timing on the end bell down to 30 degree mark and the motor came off at 140 degrees after 6 minutes of hard racing. Jamie Hanson who won mini used the new M05v2 with a ThunderPower 21.5. I probably could have increased the timing to match Jamie's top end speed but the motor felt too good in the infield. Either way I was extremely pleased with the results. You can view the lap times on the Tamiya Website-Jackson race to see how consistent and competitive the motor is. A lot of guys in my area are rethinking their Killshot purchases.

Great motor!
you are right on the money
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:42 PM   #245
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Hi John, I was reading your feedback & I just had some suggestions that might help your test.

If you don't mind I would like to see if you can try different settings on your motor to do the test comparison. It sounds to me that you might have had more timing than necessary on the R1 motor. What your describing is something that I would only see if the motor had more timing than necessary. It might get better but I still doubt that it will be a good comparison to the others you you mentioned due to the Very superior magnetic strength inside the R1 compared to others.

We have done similar tests, except I was testing different strength rotors to compare all on an R1 motor.We were able to produce higher rpm fast acceleration on a similar dyno that you are describing. We were also able make a motor produce less amp draw at the same time. Most of the results you are looking for can be achieved with a lower strength rotor.

here is what what the test looked like-

1550 rotor less RPM & High Amp Draw
1500 rotor higher Rpm & less amp draw
1450 rotor Higher Rpm than 1500 rotor & less amp draw than 1500 rotor
1300 rotor Higher Rpm than 1450 rotor & less amp draw than 1450 rotor
1250 rotor Higher Rpm than 1300 rotor & less amp draw than 1300 rotor
I tested this all the way down to a 1000 Gauss rotor

Although this test may lead someone to believe that a lower amp draw & higher rpm (weaker rotor) might produce a better looking motor on a dyno, for us the opposite is true on the track. Every time I test with different "A" level driver using different strength rotors, Drivers always choose a higher strength (1500+) rotor as "faster" on the track & more consistent.

knowing that the magnetic strength inside the R1 is higher than the motors you described, I'm not surprised by the results you are getting on your dyno.
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Last edited by R1wurks; 07-28-2014 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:41 AM   #246
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I will mirror what Carl mentioned following this past weekend's TCS race at Jackson. I ran the 13.5 and 17.5 in the GT classes and never felt like I was lacking any power from either motor. An early Sunday morning thunderstorm resulted in overall lower track grip. I struggled to get into a setup window for Sunday's events so a damper was placed on the progress I could make with the motors. If anything, the motors may have been too much for the reduced grip the track had on Sunday compared to Saturday.

Picture of layout is attached.

---
GT-1 (13.5) TCS Spec:
FDR: 5.45 (106/36 - TRF418)
~31* endbell timing

The 13.5 felt best between the two classes I ran. Likely due to spending a little more time trying to get into a good gearing/timing window. Plenty of rip and the top end just wanted to stretch out more and more with every tooth I went down on the pinion.

---
GT-2 (17.5) TCS Spec:
FDR: 4.25 (76/42 - TB03)
~29* endbell timing

The 17.5 started to feel similar to the 13.5 by the end of the day, but I am sure there is more which can be found with a little more time. Will likely start out a tooth or two lower next time I have it out and see what happens.
---

I am *very* impressed with the R1 motors. Temps topped around 150-160* after each run. Out of the box, I did have to do a small tweak on the sensor assembly on the 17.5 as it was not level to the rotor. The 13.5 was level, just not centered with the rotor. It was interesting answering questions about the rip both cars had. When I mentioned the gearing I was running, a couple guys initially had the look of, "Yeah, you could just say no thanks instead of giving me bad info."

Going to do a tear-down on both motors tonight but really don't expect to see anything out of the ordinary.
Attached Thumbnails
R1 Brushless Motors (Roar approved) 17.5,21.5 & 13.5-rckrakin-facebook-photo.jpg  
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Last edited by Jethroz; 07-29-2014 at 12:56 PM. Reason: typos, typos, typos :(
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Old 08-02-2014, 09:11 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R1wurks View Post
Hi John, I was reading your feedback & I just had some suggestions that might help your test.

If you don't mind I would like to see if you can try different settings on your motor to do the test comparison. It sounds to me that you might have had more timing than necessary on the R1 motor. What your describing is something that I would only see if the motor had more timing than necessary. It might get better but I still doubt that it will be a good comparison to the others you you mentioned due to the Very superior magnetic strength inside the R1 compared to others.

We have done similar tests, except I was testing different strength rotors to compare all on an R1 motor.We were able to produce higher rpm fast acceleration on a similar dyno that you are describing. We were also able make a motor produce less amp draw at the same time. Most of the results you are looking for can be achieved with a lower strength rotor.

here is what what the test looked like-

1550 rotor less RPM & High Amp Draw
1500 rotor higher Rpm & less amp draw
1450 rotor Higher Rpm than 1500 rotor & less amp draw than 1500 rotor
1300 rotor Higher Rpm than 1450 rotor & less amp draw than 1450 rotor
1250 rotor Higher Rpm than 1300 rotor & less amp draw than 1300 rotor
I tested this all the way down to a 1000 Gauss rotor
Although this test may lead someone to believe that a lower amp draw & higher rpm (weaker rotor) might produce a better looking motor on a dyno, for us the opposite is true on the track. Every time I test with different "A" level driver using different strength rotors, Drivers always choose a higher strength (1500+) rotor as "faster" on the track & more consistent.

knowing that the magnetic strength inside the R1 is higher than the motors you described, I'm not surprised by the results you are getting on your dyno.
What rotor comes in your 21.5 (if there is a RPM version that is what I have)?

I did try different timings; however, the 60 degrees I choose to use is less than the 68 degree timing(38 on the endbell) being recommended here for the R1 21.5.

Of course If my assumption that the R1 has 30 degrees built into the Stator is incorrect please let me know

I'd be glad to run (& returrn) those rotors if you send them. Basic problem is that the AMP draw of the R1 motor I bough is already much higher than the motor that started running flat in a 12 minute mains we run here in USGT. After I get back to racing in a few weeks I'm going to start running the R1 in my USGT car, and see how it goes. I'll get back with you and let you know how it runs.

BTW I agree with you analysis of Rotors and its affects on RPM and AMP. At least the two Kill Shots are consistent, the 12.5mm RPM rotor has a lot more RPM than the 12.5mm torque rotor but only slightly less Amp draw. (Both rotors are certified)

Last edited by John Wallace2; 08-03-2014 at 05:31 PM. Reason: Added the BTW comment
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:48 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jethroz View Post
I will mirror what Carl mentioned following this past weekend's TCS race at Jackson. I ran the 13.5 and 17.5 in the GT classes and never felt like I was lacking any power from either motor. An early Sunday morning thunderstorm resulted in overall lower track grip. I struggled to get into a setup window for Sunday's events so a damper was placed on the progress I could make with the motors. If anything, the motors may have been too much for the reduced grip the track had on Sunday compared to Saturday.

Picture of layout is attached.

---
GT-1 (13.5) TCS Spec:
FDR: 5.45 (106/36 - TRF418)
~31* endbell timing

The 13.5 felt best between the two classes I ran. Likely due to spending a little more time trying to get into a good gearing/timing window. Plenty of rip and the top end just wanted to stretch out more and more with every tooth I went down on the pinion.

---
GT-2 (17.5) TCS Spec:
FDR: 4.25 (76/42 - TB03)
~29* endbell timing

The 17.5 started to feel similar to the 13.5 by the end of the day, but I am sure there is more which can be found with a little more time. Will likely start out a tooth or two lower next time I have it out and see what happens.
---

I am *very* impressed with the R1 motors. Temps topped around 150-160* after each run. Out of the box, I did have to do a small tweak on the sensor assembly on the 17.5 as it was not level to the rotor. The 13.5 was level, just not centered with the rotor. It was interesting answering questions about the rip both cars had. When I mentioned the gearing I was running, a couple guys initially had the look of, "Yeah, you could just say no thanks instead of giving me bad info."

Going to do a tear-down on both motors tonight but really don't expect to see anything out of the ordinary.
Hi Jethroz,

Do you use a special tool to align and center the sensor to the rotor?

Thanks
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:14 PM   #249
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Old 08-04-2014, 06:01 PM   #250
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How can check if the sensor is not square? I took the motor out of the packaging and threw it in the car. I know not how to set a brushless motor. (And we thought brushless was going to solve the motor tuning of brushed motors). Please advise as perhaps I'm leaving some horsepower on the table?
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Old 08-05-2014, 10:57 AM   #251
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Carl, If you have concerns about your sensor alignment I don't mind re-checking this for you.I don't think you are leaving any HP on the table, prior to the reedy race I personally tested this theory & found that it would take an "extreme" misalignment to have a slight effect on the motors performance.
I understand anyone that has any concern about this and I would be more than happy to check this for you.You can email me thru the website, No PM's since I'm rarely here.

for the other questions, there is no tool for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Giordano View Post
How can check if the sensor is not square? I took the motor out of the packaging and threw it in the car. I know not how to set a brushless motor. (And we thought brushless was going to solve the motor tuning of brushed motors). Please advise as perhaps I'm leaving some horsepower on the table?
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Old 08-05-2014, 11:20 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by R1wurks View Post
Carl, If you have concerns about your sensor alignment I don't mind re-checking this for you.I don't think you are leaving any HP on the table, prior to the reedy race I personally tested this theory & found that it would take an "extreme" misalignment to have a slight effect on the motors performance.
I understand anyone that has any concern about this and I would be more than happy to check this for you.You can email me thru the website, No PM's since I'm rarely here.

for the other questions, there is no tool for this.
Thanks for clarifying
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Old 08-05-2014, 06:31 PM   #253
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Hi Jethroz,

Do you use a special tool to align and center the sensor to the rotor?

Thanks
A chop-stick I found in the kitchen drawer, cut down until the diameter slightly snugs up inside the sensor assembly and beveled the tip to rest in the bearing. I think it was bamboo - don't tell my wife. My 13.5 was slightly off-center, which made a noticeable wobble when I free spun the sensor end on the rotor shaft. The 17.5 wasn't level to the bottom of the rotor, meaning one hall sensor was .5mm away from the rotor, while the other two were .7mm - .8mm. Not much of a difference, and likely wouldn't have had any effect on the performance of the motor, but it's just the way I am. I had planned to swap out a few rotors and didn't want to forget about the slight tilt and end up grinding a sensor on the rotor if I shimmed it too tight. Quick fix with the iron - all good.

These are really nice motors. The design of the stator allows air to flow through it quite well. I think that has a large impact on why this motor is able to handle higher temps/timing consistently where others would begin to go flat or smoke.
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Old 08-05-2014, 06:43 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Giordano View Post
How can check if the sensor is not square? I took the motor out of the packaging and threw it in the car. I know not how to set a brushless motor. (And we thought brushless was going to solve the motor tuning of brushed motors). Please advise as perhaps I'm leaving some horsepower on the table?
Carl, your mini was not lacking horsepower at Jackson and looked pretty good on the track from what I saw. The problem you had was named Hanson. The bribe envelope never got heavy enough for me to glue his bearings.
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:05 AM   #255
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I like the way I can just loosen up the timing plate screws and adjust timing with ease. Try doing that with a killshot. These motors have given me the chance to make a comeback at my track since the banning of the D3.5. Pretty happy!
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