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Old 03-07-2014, 10:42 AM   #91
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I think you should come race onroad, Dino. Get a couple of those Durango TCs for you and Glenn.

Martin, I must applaud you for not only all the hard work you put into your app and the original setup book, but also into replying to questions on here. I only vaguely understand all the setup stuff, which is why I rarely stray too far from the kit setup (aside from also being lazy), but I'm hoping one day it will eventually sink into this thick skull of mine.

See you next weekend!
Yeah I will definitely grab a Durango TC soon, and I think Glen will too. The cars are being released today from Hobbico. But most likely we will concentrate more in the off-road during the summer and switch to TC when it starts getting cold again.
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Old 03-07-2014, 03:20 PM   #92
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Hi Martin, I would like to know when do you use the hard arms and the soft arms or the medium arms?
I always prefer hard arms. I have experimented with soft arms and I found the handling inconsistent and less precise.


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Since you've raced real an r/c cars, how do you translate "picking your braking point" to r/c? The hardest thing I find is consistently hitting the spot to slow down, and slowing down the same amount, each lap. It turn that also relates to reacting to what car has done in a turn instead of making the car do what you want it to, got any tips on that?
Less of a setup question, but an important one for sure. I am sure there are different approaches, but let me share mine and how it relates to racing real cars. One of the things you learn early on in race schools or high performance driving schools is how important where, when and how you look at key reference points. This is perhaps the most important thing when driving full size cars when trying to a) go fast b) be consistent and c) be safe. They teach you to look far down the track well before you get to your braking point so you can consistently judge when to apply brakes. That's why a lot of race tracks have those braking markers at the side of the track, to give you a reference point. Once you have started your braking or somtimes even a little before you start your braking, you are then focusing on the turn-in point. Before you get to the turn-in point, you focus on the apex, ...before you get to the apex you start to focus on the corner exit reference point. They also teach you to use a "loose focus" with your eyes, which means you are looking at the reference point, but you are also concentrating on your peripheral vision to ensure you have spacial awareness of the cars around you.

How I apply these concepts to RC Car racing.

The details of the above perhaps are not as important as the concept of looking ahead so you can consistently judge your braking, your turn-in, your throttle etc.

Now you are saying, but how can I look ahead, when I need to focus on my car. The answer is in using that "loose focus" concept I talked about. So yes you look at your car as it is going down the straight, but you mentally need to build the skill of focusing on your peripheral vision to see your reference points for braking, turn-in, apex and exit.

It is difficult to do this, and it requires a lot of concentration. I am often yelling at myself (in my head) while driving to remember to use my peripheral vision to pick up the reference points, because it is very natural to just focus on your car.

The other side benefit of this approach is that it gives you more spacial awareness of the cars around you, which helps you better setup passes, avoid cars that crash just in front of you etc.

So yes, perhaps not about setup, but I think one of the most critical things to going consistently fast.

In terms of being more consistent with the actual applying of brakes, what I have found that having less overall braking in the car and a high frequency on the braking through the esc settings, the smoother and more consistent the braking can be.

I also use drag brake, not to be more consistent, but to speed up the transition from throttle to braking. So I run between 8% to 13% drag brake on my orca esc depending on what motor I am running. I run more drag brake for mod motors and less drag brake for say 17.5.

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Originally Posted by Quantra View Post
Hi Martin,

Great thread and a great app too. I have some things which have been on my mind for a few weeks, perhaps you can clear things up for me.

Raising/lowering camber link both inner and outer positions, changing the camber link length and altering wishbone height all change roll center and camber gain. My question is what is the difference between these settings, or do they all behave the same? In what situation would you choose to change one of these settings in preference to another?

I read a lot about RC setup and rarely if ever see a mention for steering axis inclination or scrub radius. Are these things not important in RC?

And my big question is without any prior knowledge or base set up for a car how would you approach initially setting the car up and finding a base set up? Where do you start?!

TIA!
Good series of questions. Yes it is true that upper link length, height and angle all will impact roll center. Also yes, the lower a-arm angle will also impact roll ceter.

Some general rules of thumb I use.

1) if I want a large roll center change, I move the lower a-arm as moving inboard hinge pin up 1mm on the lower a-arm will have a much much larger impact on the roll center than moving the inboard upper link position by 1mm.

For example I did some calculations on an RC calculator I am working on. With the measurements I put into the simulator to simulate my RC car setup, by raising the lower a-arm by 1mm this raised the RC by 2mm. To get that same 2mm raise in RC I needed to lower the inboard upper link by 3.5mm.

2) For minor roll center changes (which is the vast majority of the roll center changes I make) I use the upper link, because the impact is less dramatic. Having said that even a 0.5mm change on the inboard upper link makes a difference you can feel.

3) For camber gain I use the upper link length as the main approach.


Re: Scrub etc : this is not often talked about in Touring cars as it is not something we can really change. It is a factor on 1/12th scale however. As a result I have not really done much research or testing on these setup changes. I am only guessing here, so if someone else can reference material on this I would appreciate it... but the greater the scrub radius the more leverage that outside front tire will have so I believe it would make the outside front dip less through the corner. However I think it might jack up the inside tire more. Both of which would raise the CG leading to a high tendency to traction roll. Again just a guess.

Your big question re: a baseline setup. The baseline setups that are recommended in kits are always pretty good. The more experience you have the more you will alter that baseline setup from the kit as you build the car.

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Originally Posted by Dino_D View Post
Hey Martin.. Long time no talk... Gonna come race off-road with us?
Hey Dino - I dont have any offroad gear....I did not have any on-road gear (after selling all my stuff 2 years ago) until Mark Frechette hooked me up with a CSO and Orca hooked me up with some motors, esc and batteries. Thanks to both!

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Originally Posted by locked View Post
I think you should come race onroad, Dino. Get a couple of those Durango TCs for you and Glenn.

Martin, I must applaud you for not only all the hard work you put into your app and the original setup book, but also into replying to questions on here. I only vaguely understand all the setup stuff, which is why I rarely stray too far from the kit setup (aside from also being lazy), but I'm hoping one day it will eventually sink into this thick skull of mine.

See you next weekend!
Thank you so much for your comment! Luckily I really enjoy thinking through setups as I know how much a good setup can improve your driving and lap times. Also what I have noticed is that as I try to answer questions on this thread, it sometimes gets me thinking about something new I want to try on my own car. It helps me stay out of a rut of always doing the same things on my setup. For example, some questions about caster go me thinking about reducing my static front camber from 2 to 1 degrees and then increasing my caster from 4 degrees to 6 degrees. I want to see if this gives me better braking performance (it should). But I typically just run 4 degrees and don't think about changing caster too much. Also all the questions about RC got me creating an RC calculator (as mentioned above) that I hope to make available in the app someday. In the process of creating this calculator I am focusing on seeing how I can apply how the RC changes when the car is leaning and see if there are some additional optimizations for setups to make the car feel smoother, less edgy but also still have lots of lateral grip.

Wow this was a big post...sorry for rambling on!

Cheers.
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Old 03-07-2014, 04:55 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Martin Crisp View Post
Sounds like things are getting better

Try adding a little bit of toe out on the front to help with the initial turn-in.

What are you running for front and rear droop in the car?

Also - I am surprised to hear that adding more shims to the inboard upper front link added more steering all around. Typically that will take away steering especially in the middle of the corner, but might feel like you have a little more initial turn-in.
I could be mistaken as it was an asphat track so not always the same from run to run but track temp was the same. Same tyres, additive ect.

The car certainly had more front grip mid corner and traction rolled twice with when I stuffed up and made a quick correction (first for me on asphalt).
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Old 03-07-2014, 05:00 PM   #94
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Thanks for the answers Martin, you are doing a great service to everyone here! I don't think anyone will complain when you make a long post

I guess what I meant to ask about baseline setups is how do the manufacturers find those base set ups? Is it just based on experience, intuition and experiment or is there another approach they take to find them such as computer modelling? I guess my question could be considered about the stage from car design to initial setup.
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Old 03-07-2014, 07:07 PM   #95
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Thanks for the answers Martin, you are doing a great service to everyone here! I don't think anyone will complain when you make a long post

I guess what I meant to ask about baseline setups is how do the manufacturers find those base set ups? Is it just based on experience, intuition and experiment or is there another approach they take to find them such as computer modelling? I guess my question could be considered about the stage from car design to initial setup.
I don't know for sure, but likely a combination of a lot of engineering math and testing.
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Old 03-08-2014, 11:37 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Martin Crisp View Post
Thank you!



Here are some things for you to try the loose off-power and loose on-power issues.

1) go from 1.5 negative camber in the rear to 2.0 negative camber
2) go from 2.5 rear toe in to 3.0 rear toe in
3) go from hole 1 in the inboard front upper link to hole 3 (makes the link longer)
4) go from 2mm shims on the outboard front upper link to 1mm shims
5) go from 1mm shims on the inboard front upper link to 2mm shims

You may find that just (1) and (2) will be enough.
(3)(4) and (5) will make the front roll more taking away some front end grip. Also (3) will reduce the camber gain in the front, further reducing front end grip.

The rear roll center is already fairly high, which is good at increasing rear grip, so this is why I focused on lowering the roll cetner in the front.

Let me know how this works out for you.

Cheers.
from this http://forum.teamxray.com/xform/inde...&setup=t4_2014

to this

http://forum.teamxray.com/xform/inde...&setup=t4_2014
hi martin,heres the set up i ended up with after todays test,do you see anything wrong? i went to 3.0 rear toe,2 camber and ended up with 3mm shim on the rear inner link,i tried going the other way with no inner link shim and added 0.5 to the outer rear,although not worse it was still the same,the 3mm inner link shim seems to have solved the problem,i also reduced the bump steer shim to 1mm as it seems to have more mid corner and thats why the rear slides,so i guess a little less mid is still needed,when i do a test i dont use additive untill the car feels better ,is this a good or bad way to test,all i do is stick the warmers back on without cleaning them figuring itll keep the test more consistent,when i put additive on the car has a lot more corner speed and grip,i think my tyres has gone off also another top driver was testing today and he was saying his car was the same (loose)and that its the track which should clean up at tomorrows race,so ive come away from the track with more corner speed than i had before,ill find out how good or bad it is when i put it up against the other cars,
so what exactly have i done,got the car to roll more or less?,i love the amount of steering the car has so didnt mess with it too much,if i added shims for bump steer would that give more mid corner ?,thanks for all your help,Richard
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Old 03-08-2014, 01:23 PM   #97
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Awesome question. You could setup your car to unload the inside tire that this would likely make a difference. I have never really tested it however. I like to play with ackerman to add or take away front steering, so it is as a good thing to experiment with.

In general however if I am trying to get more lateral grip from the front, I would being trying to decrease the unloading of the inside front tire to maximize lateral grip. One of the best ways to do this is to raise the front roll centre. Adding a stiffer front sway bar by the way would make it worse.



Hey John. Thank you! You did not get the cheque?

Yes, for sure the theories outlined in the book/app applies to offroad as well. There major difference is really understanding what a good baseline setup would be. Also although I only did off-road for one summer, I found tire knowledge/selection for track surfaces is a new skill you need to learn for off-road.
Must have been lost in the mail when I moved to TX, I'll send a PM with a forwarding address HAHAHA

Got that right. Took about a year to figure out the right tires for the right surface and to know when to change tires when the track changes (i.e., how long after they watered the track did I run).

In the OFF ROAD "Tuning with Camber Liinks" thread, Fred Swain has tuning advice for off roaders. Basically the same advise as yours but a few more twists that are more appropriate for the larger suspension travels and bumpier off road surfaces. However, his big point is to start with a balanced setup in terms of equal wheel rates and roll centers and tune from there. You have the same advise in your book but do not emphasize it. He is also very down on using factory setups and/or copying someone else's setups as the starting setup. I must say in the off road setups I've tested using his methods, the factory and team setups were not balanced and I and my friend came up with balanced setups that we liked a heck of a lot better. I really haven' tried any of his setup ideas on my on road cars yet as they are working extremely well (thanks to you) after being returned to racing status after years of being static displays.
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Old 03-08-2014, 03:29 PM   #98
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edit: NVM
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Old 03-08-2014, 03:34 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by chasingthepack View Post
from this http://forum.teamxray.com/xform/inde...&setup=t4_2014

to this

http://forum.teamxray.com/xform/inde...&setup=t4_2014
hi martin,heres the set up i ended up with after todays test,do you see anything wrong? i went to 3.0 rear toe,2 camber and ended up with 3mm shim on the rear inner link,i tried going the other way with no inner link shim and added 0.5 to the outer rear,although not worse it was still the same,the 3mm inner link shim seems to have solved the problem,i also reduced the bump steer shim to 1mm as it seems to have more mid corner and thats why the rear slides,so i guess a little less mid is still needed,when i do a test i dont use additive untill the car feels better ,is this a good or bad way to test,all i do is stick the warmers back on without cleaning them figuring itll keep the test more consistent,when i put additive on the car has a lot more corner speed and grip,i think my tyres has gone off also another top driver was testing today and he was saying his car was the same (loose)and that its the track which should clean up at tomorrows race,so ive come away from the track with more corner speed than i had before,ill find out how good or bad it is when i put it up against the other cars,
so what exactly have i done,got the car to roll more or less?,i love the amount of steering the car has so didnt mess with it too much,if i added shims for bump steer would that give more mid corner ?,thanks for all your help,Richard
Hey Richard,

Glad to see that you are making positive progress in your testing. I would always always always do my testing with traction compound and when possible the same tires you will be racing with both in brand and usage. If you don't do this then its like going to a completely different track when you put newer tires on and put additive on those tires. Always be consistent in the way you apply compound, how long you leave it on, etc. Also, always clean your tires before you apply additive. Here is a link to a post on my site that has a link to great video by Paul Lemieux on how to clean tires between runs. http://www.learnsetup.com/blog/

In terms of the changes you made, I think the additional camber and rear toe are the main reasons why you are getting more grip and corner speed. In my original suggestion I believe I had suggested to leave the rear upper links as they were as adding inboard spacers to the rear upper links would make the car more loose. Having said that, I think it is very likely that the additional rear stability gained from the increased negative rear toe and camber allowed provided more than enough rear grip to the car, essentially allowing you to lower the rear roll center by going to 3mm inboard on the upper links. By lowering roll center this causes the car to roll more in the corners. This additional roll means the difference between the inside tire and outside tire, in the vertical downward force, is increasing, which reduces lateral grip.

But again because you added more camber and rear toe, you could get away with the lower rear roll center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wallace2 View Post
Must have been lost in the mail when I moved to TX, I'll send a PM with a forwarding address HAHAHA

Got that right. Took about a year to figure out the right tires for the right surface and to know when to change tires when the track changes (i.e., how long after they watered the track did I run).

In the OFF ROAD "Tuning with Camber Liinks" thread, Fred Swain has tuning advice for off roaders. Basically the same advise as yours but a few more twists that are more appropriate for the larger suspension travels and bumpier off road surfaces. However, his big point is to start with a balanced setup in terms of equal wheel rates and roll centers and tune from there. You have the same advise in your book but do not emphasize it. He is also very down on using factory setups and/or copying someone else's setups as the starting setup. I must say in the off road setups I've tested using his methods, the factory and team setups were not balanced and I and my friend came up with balanced setups that we liked a heck of a lot better. I really haven' tried any of his setup ideas on my on road cars yet as they are working extremely well (thanks to you) after being returned to racing status after years of being static displays.
Hey John,

I agree in principle with Fred, but I must say that when I ran offroad the kit setup was pretty good. Of course I can make it better, but I think they are a decent starting point. If you are not experienced with setup or what all of the different adjustments do, I still think the kit setups are the best place to start. Now when I build a touring car, I completely ignore the factory settings and set it up based on my experience.

But as I said, I agree in principle with Fred, that for an initial baseline setup you don't want radically different roll centers. Most kit setups don't have radically different roll centers.

Cheers.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:27 PM   #100
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Default Updated my CSO v2 setup on LearnSetup.com

After testing the car last weekend for the first time I found a nice setup for a medium grip carpet track. I just finished updating that setup.

Follow these setups to find it.

Login to http://app.learnsetup.com
Search for CSO v2 within the setup list and you will find it.
Cheers,
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:36 AM   #101
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Martin, I am a fan of your TC setup book, it has been the holy grail for me, and old fart who returned to r/c cars after over 2 decades...As a newbie, I keep all my cars according to stock recommended setup, so what I dare to change are only tyres and shocks. Lately I found myself lost in the setting up my cars, and would cherish your guidance.

I would like to know why would most TC uses stiffer springs in the front than on the rear? Won't that inhibit turn in?

Then, as I own different makes of cars, all setup under the factory recommendation, I found they turn differently from each other. Even though I tried to put same turn of motor, tyre and body shell and run them at the same track (I run at an outdoor asphalt track with a long straight, wide bends and good traction) each would perform differently. So my stupid question is that whether I could duplicate the control feeling of one car to the other? e.g. I like my TRF 418 driving feeling, as under default setup it gives a lot of initial turn in and mid corner. However, my T414 is stable but a bit pushy, The BD7-14 would feel midway amongst the two, and weirdly my A700 FFG was so finicky I could not touch the throttle mid of the turn or it just won't turn. I was wondering whether I could make all 4 cars to have the initial turn feeling of the 418, and if so how to go about doing it just by playing with springs.

Thanks for your help in advance
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Old 03-09-2014, 12:43 PM   #102
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In terms of the changes you made, I think the additional camber and rear toe are the main reasons why you are getting more grip and corner speed. In my original suggestion I believe I had suggested to leave the rear upper links as they were as adding inboard spacers to the rear upper links would make the car more loose. Having said that, I think it is very likely that the additional rear stability gained from the increased negative rear toe and camber allowed provided more than enough rear grip to the car, essentially allowing you to lower the rear roll center by going to 3mm inboard on the upper links. By lowering roll center this causes the car to roll more in the corners. This additional roll means the difference between the inside tire and outside tire, in the vertical downward force, is increasing, which reduces lateral grip.

But again because you added more camber and rear toe, you could get away with the lower rear roll center.
i had already gone to 2* camber and 3* of toe and it wasnt enough,it would still slide,although it was very predictable and a quick stab on the throttle caught it,i then tried 2mm on the inner rear link and it improved alot,so i tried another 1mm and it was better again,pretty much stopped sliding,i was going to try removing 1mm from the outer ,but changed my mind and removed the rear graphite arm plates and it was cured completely,then today as the grip came up i was in need of more corner speed so after changing shock oil twice going up to 400 then 450 i settled on 450 and in q4 i managed to tq,it was close with a 19;317.13 vs a 19;317.78,i got off to a great start in the 1st final ,but made an error on the infield on lap 11 and put it on the grass,dropped to 8th,fought my way back up to 5th but i was on the bumper of 4th over the line,2nd final i kept it together and went from flag to finish 4 secs ahead of the rest,so your help does have an impact,thanks again and long may you keep it up
heres a vid of our tracks first set of finals,we had 17.5 blinky 13.5 boosted and superbikes,hope you like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtRX6...ature=youtu.be
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:59 PM   #103
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Martin, I am a fan of your TC setup book, it has been the holy grail for me, and old fart who returned to r/c cars after over 2 decades...As a newbie, I keep all my cars according to stock recommended setup, so what I dare to change are only tyres and shocks. Lately I found myself lost in the setting up my cars, and would cherish your guidance.

I would like to know why would most TC uses stiffer springs in the front than on the rear? Won't that inhibit turn in?

Then, as I own different makes of cars, all setup under the factory recommendation, I found they turn differently from each other. Even though I tried to put same turn of motor, tyre and body shell and run them at the same track (I run at an outdoor asphalt track with a long straight, wide bends and good traction) each would perform differently. So my stupid question is that whether I could duplicate the control feeling of one car to the other? e.g. I like my TRF 418 driving feeling, as under default setup it gives a lot of initial turn in and mid corner. However, my T414 is stable but a bit pushy, The BD7-14 would feel midway amongst the two, and weirdly my A700 FFG was so finicky I could not touch the throttle mid of the turn or it just won't turn. I was wondering whether I could make all 4 cars to have the initial turn feeling of the 418, and if so how to go about doing it just by playing with springs.

Thanks for your help in advance
All those cars have different characteristics. The only way to get them all to feel the same is to set them all up differently. There is no 'one solution' to set up an A700 FFG like an xray or a yokomo or a tamyia... You have to learn what options there are to change on each and how making those changes affect the performance... Id recommend picking just one car and learning how to set it up real well and sell the rest until you get more Comfortable with set up.
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Old 03-09-2014, 08:28 PM   #104
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So here is my set up sheet. Its the new VBC Ghost set up for VTA. The car handle pretty decenlty but very predicable. I am having 2 problems. The first is around sweeping turns, the car want to roll. Its never a violent traction roll. More like a slow lean. I can sometines stop it if I back out of throttle. The other is spees scrubbing. On the tighter turns the car wants to scrub speed in the mid to exit of corner off power. I know this because I van hear the tires sqeaking. The track is a medium grip carpet traxk. You can look them um on facebook. Its bish river racway. Its a great place to race. Any help would be apriciated. Thank you.
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:25 PM   #105
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Mostly I have been silently reading, studying and trying to understand every question and answer given in this thread. Just came back from the track today and I have to say it has been a rewarding practice day today after applying some things I learned in this thread! I want to thank Martin “Setup Legend” Crisp for his work and time I also have your app on my iPad and go through it from time to time, I want to thank also everyone asking questions and participating in this thread. Subscribed! Happy man
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