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Old 03-16-2014, 07:22 PM   #136
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Martin was very impressive in the Super Stock 13.5 A Main today at the Canadian Nationals. Unfortunately I believe the Pinion came off. Martin qualified in the top 5 I believe in both Super Stock and Mod. Impressive after not racing RC for about 2 years. His car was dialed.
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Old 03-17-2014, 09:09 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by jdeadman View Post
Hi Martin. I have been reading your traction rolling thread and this one. I also have the app on my droid and subbed to your web app.

Here is my senerio

I have a Factory Team TC4 (carbon Fiber chassis)

Below is my current setup that is a little roll happy. generally very fast just edge and when the rear breaks its breaks hard

This is on a very tight track 30x50 fast guys running 8.2 in 17.5 Stock TC Fastest I have been a 8.5

Basically the cars feels great but when it traction rolls it's very sudden
Looking at your setup sheet, I did not see any info about the amount of droop (maybe I missed it?). The setup looks good as a baseline, but as always each track/scenario will require some slight modifications. If you have more than 2mm of droop in the front and more than 2.5mm of droop in the rear then I would reduce it to those numbers, or maybe even 1.5mm in the front and 2.0mm in the back.

I don't know the TC4 very well, but I think you should add more inboard spacers to the upper links to lower the roll center at both ends of the car to reduce traction roll. You could also reduce the camber to 1 in the front and 1.5 in the back to also further reduce traction rolling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukes2004 View Post
Martin,

I am setting up a TC4 for VTA and was reading through the manual and your learnsetup app last night. When it became time to set the wheelbase, the manual says "Shortening the rear will increase rear grip, while lengthening will decrease rear traction."

In your app you say "For example , if you adjust the wheelbase by moving both the front and rear axles forward relative to the chassis, you will be essentially putting more weight over the rear axle of the car, which will give the car more steering. If you move both axles toward the rear of the car you will get less steering."

What happens just by moving the rear forward? Also, I race at a track that has a very low grip carpet. The rear of my car is very unstable. What is a good starting point for a low (LOW!!!!) grip carpet setup? What areas of the setup would you be focusing on first to get the rear of the car stable?
wow another TC4

First to comment on what you read in the associated manual. I may not fully understand the context in which they are saying that a shorter wheelbase gives you more grip. But I don't agree with that statement on its own. Maybe they are thinking that it would allow more weight to transfer to the rear of the car on acceleration giving you more "forward" grip? Even if that is what they were saying I would still not agree with it.

To answer your question "what happens just by moving the rear forward". Well with a shorter wheel base your car will rotate more quickly. Also with slightly more static weight now over the rear tires that would also make the car a little more loose mid corner. So basically it would give you more steering if you just move the rear forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan View Post
Hi Martin,

Real quick question :-)
What is the negative to raising your Roll Center too high? Eg how do you know when you're gone too far?
Hope that makes sense.
Cheers
Andrew
Good question. Two things can happened if you raise the roll center too much. One is that the car can traction roll more easily. The second is that the car does not transition smoothly. Instead it feels very choppy and none linear as it transitions, making it feel nervous and twitchy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick oxley View Post
i understand weight transfer and over/understeer but rotation is a subject
were i am totaly lost. some cars just seem to rotate around tight hairpins
and carry more corner speed without any oversteer so how do i get good
rotation in the tight turns.
To get the best corner speed you don't want your car to have any understeer, but you also don't want it to have too much oversteer. Beyond the obvious of being way too loose, you can tell you have too much oversteer if the rear tires get too hot and the car starts to oversteer more during the race.

There is not simple answer to "how do I get good rotation". The best answer I can provide is seek that balance through the entire corner by working on all of the different setup changes. As a general comment I would suggest you start with trying to maximize the rear grip first, as that is an easier car to drive. Then start dialing in the front grip for more mid corner steering second forgetting about turn-in or exit for the moment. You may need to take away some rear grip to get the right balance. Once you do that, then work on the corner entry steering and feel that you like. Some like smooth transitions while others like abrupt transitions on turn-in. Once you have adjusted the turn-in you may have changed the mid corner balance, and have to fine tune that again. Finally work on corner exit balance. Again as you adjust for corner exit it can affect the balance in the rest of the corners as well.





Quote:
Originally Posted by CFRacing View Post
Great thread Martin. Here goes my question. What would be the effect of raising or lowering
axle or diff height on a car?
To be honest, I have not really seen much difference in the way the cars handle when playing around with diff height. So I always default to lower diff heights to keep the CG lower. Having said that, the theory would be that by changing the diff height you change how much twisting force would be applied to the chassis causing the front to lift more or less while under power. Like I said, I can't seem to see much difference, but I believe the idea is that the higher the rear diff the less the front will lift off the ground under acceleration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukes2004 View Post
Martin,

I must say that I have learned more in the last few weeks of owning your app than in the previous many years of racing I have done. Using your app, I took a middle of the pack VTA car and made it dominant. I could do whatever I wanted to with this car and the cornering speed I had with it was crazy. The car was also consistent. On a track where I had been running 14-15.5second laps, I was running in the 12's. I spent the A Main just cruising around out front. The best part....where my car was previously squirmy on the straights, and LOOSE LOOSE LOOSE under power, this thing was hooked up and doesn't have a scratch on it. It was the most fun I have had wheeling a car in a long time! LearnSetup is an excellent tool and I have recommended it to many at my local track.
Outstanding!!! So happy to hear that! A well handling car really does allow us to better enjoy this hobby! I love seeing more experience racers help new racers get their car better sorted so they can start to have some fun, because this hobby can be very frustrating when your car is not working well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdeadman View Post
Big Thanks to Everyone on here and Martin. My TC is bang on now and getting faster Went from 8.9 average to 8.5 Just some tweaks to remove the Traction rolling


Thanks
Awesome! Setup plays such a big roll.

This past weekend I came out of my RC retirement to do a one-off race, which was the Canadian Nats held inside a shopping mall. With Paul Lemieux, Kevin Hebert, Mike Haynes and Andrew Hardman there it was going to be tough not to be embarrassed considering I had not raced in 2 years. At the beginning of the weekend I was 4 tenths off Paul's best lap time. Then I decided to raise my roll center by going from 2mm shims in the front inboard upper link to 1.5mm.... and from 1mm to 0.5mm in the rear inboard upper link. That single change allowed me to gain more lateral grip and I gained 3 tenths, putting me within 1 tenth of both Paul's and Kevins best lap and matching Andrew's and Mikes best laps. T

he point here is that setup (even minor adjustments) can make a huge difference difference.
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Old 03-17-2014, 09:22 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by ElliotCanada View Post
Martin was very impressive in the Super Stock 13.5 A Main today at the Canadian Nationals. Unfortunately I believe the Pinion came off. Martin qualified in the top 5 I believe in both Super Stock and Mod. Impressive after not racing RC for about 2 years. His car was dialed.
Hey John. Great to chat with you again at the nats on the weekend. Yeah my Outlaw Tombstone car was working really well by the end of the weekend. Even though I need to fire my mechanic for the pinion issue, it was a lot of fun starting 4th and working my way up to second past Haynes and Hardman, and for a short while starting to real in Kevin...but then making a few minor mistakes and dropping back a little before the pinion decided it was quitting time. Haynes races clean so when I stuck my nose in on a corner he did not fight the corner too hard. I got by Hardman because he made a mistake. I really wanted to catch Kevin, but he does not often make a mistake.

In mod however I just screwed up and blew the second corner leading to a traffic jam and a body tuck on my car (really my doing because I screwed up the corner) putting me in last place on the first lap. Ended up a disappointing 6th after starting 5th, but still had a lot of fun hanging out with everyone again! Thanks again to Orca, Outlaw, Digital Detail, Keith Yu, Frankie and Ian Hardman, and most of all my buddy Mark Frechette for making it possible for me to race this past weekend!
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Old 03-17-2014, 09:57 PM   #139
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Smile ANOTHER TC4 guy

Martin is your book still available, if so where can I order it. I met you many many years ago at the asphalt attack in Edmonton. Is there any on road racer in Canada you haven't met !!!!

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Old 03-18-2014, 05:15 AM   #140
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Hi Martin, I have your setup app and have a couple of questions.

Did you ever manage to test your theories on ackerman and the slip angle of Sorex tyres etc?
Also, how would you describe the effect of bump steer? WE have a few people at my club who are disagreeing on the effect they're seeing when bump steer is used/increased etc.

Thanks
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Old 03-18-2014, 05:42 AM   #141
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hi martin,

regarding droop, what would you say is a good baseline for a tc indoors on carpet and how would this change to going oputdoors on asphalt, both cases using rubber tyres.

lets talk in over ride height as this takes away any other contributing factors

Thanks
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Old 03-18-2014, 06:35 AM   #142
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Thanks Martin. I increased my droop from 1.5mm to 2.5 and it lessened the traction rolling
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Old 03-18-2014, 11:20 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by THEBIGBULL View Post
Martin is your book still available, if so where can I order it. I met you many many years ago at the asphalt attack in Edmonton. Is there any on road racer in Canada you haven't met !!!!
You should be able to order online at http://xxxmain.com/bookz.shtml

If you prefer a book then it is a good option, but I wrote that book about 14 years ago. The content on my LearnSetup.com app is more current and it also has the ability to store and share your setups, calculate gear ratios and get RC news all at half the price of the book.

I have been involved in RC now for almost 20 years, and have had the fortune to travel to a lot of races and meet a lot of cool people. I remember that ROAR nationals race in Edmonton! It was such a nice large track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiddins View Post
Hi Martin, I have your setup app and have a couple of questions.

Did you ever manage to test your theories on ackerman and the slip angle of Sorex tyres etc?
Also, how would you describe the effect of bump steer? WE have a few people at my club who are disagreeing on the effect they're seeing when bump steer is used/increased etc.

I am not really a fan of the sorex tires as they don't last very long and are in my opinion not as consistent as the old jaco blue tires. Having said that I do run them because the are fast for about 2 runs (maybe 3) before they drop off. This past weekend at the Canadian Indoor Nats we ran the sorex 28 tires and I think they do prefer a little more slip angle than the jaco's, but to be honest I am not truly sure.

Thanks
Skiddins
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Wilson View Post
hi martin,

regarding droop, what would you say is a good baseline for a tc indoors on carpet and how would this change to going oputdoors on asphalt, both cases using rubber tyres.

lets talk in over ride height as this takes away any other contributing factors

Thanks
A really good starting point is 2mm over ride height in the front and 3mm over ride height in the rear. If you have traction roll issues, or you want to reduce the laziness of the car as it transitions from left to right then decrease both ends by 0.5mm. This past weekend at the Canadian Nats, the grip was fairly high and I ended up running 2mm in the front and 2.5mm in the rear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jdeadman View Post
Thanks Martin. I increased my droop from 1.5mm to 2.5 and it lessened the traction rolling
hmm....that seems odd that increasing the droop decreased your the traction rolling.
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Old 03-18-2014, 11:41 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Martin Crisp View Post
A really good starting point is 2mm over ride height in the front and 3mm over ride height in the rear.
How are you doing that measurement. I slide a ride height gauge under the chassis and lift until I can just see light between the rubber and the setup board. I then compare the difference between the ride height and the number on the gauge. Unfortunately different tires seem to have a big difference in how loose the rubber is so the time between when the tire stops taking weight and when the tire lifts off the board. Is there a better way to determine the "lift-off" point?
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Old 03-18-2014, 03:39 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Martin Crisp View Post

First to comment on what you read in the associated manual. I may not fully understand the context in which they are saying that a shorter wheelbase gives you more grip. But I don't agree with that statement on its own. Maybe they are thinking that it would allow more weight to transfer to the rear of the car on acceleration giving you more "forward" grip? Even if that is what they were saying I would still not agree with it.

To answer your question "what happens just by moving the rear forward". Well with a shorter wheel base your car will rotate more quickly. Also with slightly more static weight now over the rear tires that would also make the car a little more loose mid corner. So basically it would give you more steering if you just move the rear forward.
I wanted to comment on this mainly because I believe different. When I read through the thread, mostly I agree and don't comment on when I agree but when I disagree I'd like to give my opinion. I just don't want to come off as "the guy" that disagrees with Martin because almost all of his advice is spot on! Also everyone can have a different feel for what they change sometimes based on the car or conditions.

So in any case here is what I think and have experienced with shortening up the wheelbase.

I think making it shorter give the car more forward traction and generally more traction overall. When you make the car shorter in the rear you are doing 2 things, one is you have more cvd angle and are creating more bind in the suspension, the other is you are putting more weight in the rear.

The more cvd angle and bind you have the more traction you have. It basically makes the suspension stiffer. Sometimes you can say that a stiffer spring or swaybar takes away grip but the more cvd angle always has more grip especially on power. There are also sometimes where a stiffer spring or swaybar actually produces more grip. Mainly when there is good grip stiffer springs or swaybars make more grip. So if you run into a situation on high grip where your car is too hard to drive or maybe traction rolls you can lengthen the rear wheelbase and it becomes easier to drive. This comes from 2 things. One, the wheelbase is longer so that makes a car easier. Two you are taking away cvd angle and the rear end will roll more and act like a softer rear spring or swaybar, in the process taking away some transfer to the front and you lose turn in steering. The negative to running the wheelbase longer in the rear is you lose forward traction because you have no bind and less weight on the rear to accelerate.

I can see what Martin is saying about shortening the rear wheelbase may make the car loose in the middle of the turn because you have more swinging weight but I dont normally feel that. To me lengthening the car makes it lose mid corner, again no cvd bind and the car mid corner rolls more in the rear making it looser, just like a softer rear spring or swaybar. In theory the shorter wheelbase should turn a tighter arc and it does but the main gain I think is the cvd angle.

Getting back to stiffer is more grip. There are times when softer is more grip on super low grip conditions but in general when you have decent grip, stiffer is actually more grip. Also stiffer in the front with grip can push and traction roll, stiffer in the rear with grip usually causes a front over steer and traction roll.

You can have so many different combinations for any given condition but the car has to be balanced front and rear to make it work right.
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Old 03-18-2014, 06:36 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by chicky03 View Post
I wanted to comment on this mainly because I believe different. When I read through the thread, mostly I agree and don't comment on when I agree but when I disagree I'd like to give my opinion. I just don't want to come off as "the guy" that disagrees with Martin because almost all of his advice is spot on! Also everyone can have a different feel for what they change sometimes based on the car or conditions.

So in any case here is what I think and have experienced with shortening up the wheelbase.

I think making it shorter give the car more forward traction and generally more traction overall. When you make the car shorter in the rear you are doing 2 things, one is you have more cvd angle and are creating more bind in the suspension, the other is you are putting more weight in the rear.

The more cvd angle and bind you have the more traction you have. It basically makes the suspension stiffer. Sometimes you can say that a stiffer spring or swaybar takes away grip but the more cvd angle always has more grip especially on power. There are also sometimes where a stiffer spring or swaybar actually produces more grip. Mainly when there is good grip stiffer springs or swaybars make more grip. So if you run into a situation on high grip where your car is too hard to drive or maybe traction rolls you can lengthen the rear wheelbase and it becomes easier to drive. This comes from 2 things. One, the wheelbase is longer so that makes a car easier. Two you are taking away cvd angle and the rear end will roll more and act like a softer rear spring or swaybar, in the process taking away some transfer to the front and you lose turn in steering. The negative to running the wheelbase longer in the rear is you lose forward traction because you have no bind and less weight on the rear to accelerate.

I can see what Martin is saying about shortening the rear wheelbase may make the car loose in the middle of the turn because you have more swinging weight but I don't normally feel that. To me lengthening the car makes it lose mid corner, again no cvd bind and the car mid corner rolls more in the rear making it looser, just like a softer rear spring or swaybar. In theory the shorter wheelbase should turn a tighter arc and it does but the main gain I think is the cvd angle.

Getting back to stiffer is more grip. There are times when softer is more grip on super low grip conditions but in general when you have decent grip, stiffer is actually more grip. Also stiffer in the front with grip can push and traction roll, stiffer in the rear with grip usually causes a front over steer and traction roll.

You can have so many different combinations for any given condition but the car has to be balanced front and rear to make it work right.
Paul is a class act, as he checked with me before he posted his comments to ensure I was ok with him disagreeing with me So Cool!

This is all good discussion.


Weight Transfer:

We do agree that a shorter wheel base will transfer more weight forward under braking and rearward under acceleration. Just to back this up with some math.

(Mass * CG Height * Acceleration) / Wheelbase = Weight Transfer
for example:
(2000 * 20 * 1)/100 = 400
(2000 * 20 * 1)/80 = 500

So the smaller the wheelbase the greater the weight transfer

Longitudinal Weight Transfer affect on Acceleration and Braking:

However I don't agree that more longitudinal weight transfer produces more grip for acceleration and braking.

It is not the case that more weight transfer will produce more acceleration unless of course you are dealing with just rear wheel drive.

With four wheel drive in our Touring cars, you will actually loose acceleration the more weight you transfer to the rear. This is due to the "tire performance curve" which in simple terms means that as you apply more vertical load on a tire you gain more grip, but it is not linear. If for example you take away 100 grams of vertical load from a tire you loose more grip from that tire than you would gain my adding 100 grams of vertical load to a tire.

This is the same concept I explain in my app when talking about Lateral grip
Quote:
the greater the difference in load between the inside tire and the outside tire (i.e. more lateral weight transfer), the less overall lateral grip the car will have."
This holds true for longitudinal weight transfer as well. i.e. the greater the difference in vertical load between the front and rear tires, the less overall grip the car will have.

Since our Touring cars have all four wheels accelerating the car, then the more longitudinal weight transfer you have the less acceleration you will have

Likewise, since our touring cars have four wheel braking, then the more longitudinal weight transfer you have the less braking you will have.

Wheelbase affect on rotation in the corner:

There is a concept called the "moment of inertia":

THE MOMENT OF INERTIA (FLYWHEEL EFFECT) OF THE CAR
The moment of inertia is a physics term which describes how difficult it is to turn an object. Think about a hammer with the head at one end versus the head in the middle. The one with the head in the middle will be much easier to rotate around the central point as most of the weight is concentrated there.

The longer the wheelbase the more weight you have towards the ends of the chassis making it harder to rotate. Even more important perhaps than the weight being moved towards the ends of the car, is that the grip those tires have although constant will have more leverage resisting the rotation because the distance to the center of the car is longer.

This is why a short wheelbase car will naturally rotate better than a long wheelbase car.

Some full size cars that support this....

Sprint cars are very short wheelbases and rotate very quickly
Land speed record cars are very long so they are more stable and high speeds.
etc etc.

Cheers.
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:28 PM   #147
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Wouldn't this be true only if the short and long wheelbase cars had the same density and if neither had any overhang?
But with Rc touring cars we can only vary the wheelbase and the shorter car will have more overhang with the same total mass.

Quote:

There is a concept called the "moment of inertia":

THE MOMENT OF INERTIA (FLYWHEEL EFFECT) OF THE CAR
The moment of inertia is a physics term which describes how difficult it is to turn an object. Think about a hammer with the head at one end versus the head in the middle. The one with the head in the middle will be much easier to rotate around the central point as most of the weight is concentrated there.

The longer the wheelbase the more weight you have towards the ends of the chassis making it harder to rotate. Even more important perhaps than the weight being moved towards the ends of the car, is that the grip those tires have although constant will have more leverage resisting the rotation because the distance to the center of the car is longer.

This is why a short wheelbase car will naturally rotate better than a long wheelbase car.

Some full size cars that support this....

Sprint cars are very short wheelbases and rotate very quickly
Land speed record cars are very long so they are more stable and high speeds.
etc etc.

Cheers.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:16 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by edhchoe View Post
Wouldn't this be true only if the short and long wheelbase cars had the same density and if neither had any overhang?
But with Rc touring cars we can only vary the wheelbase and the shorter car will have more overhang with the same total mass.
First let me say that I think my comments about having more leverage with the tires further from center is the more dominant reason (although I don't have any data points to back that up...just a hunch).

But to answer your question...by moving the wheels and arms further to each end of the car, you are moving weight further away from the center. And since the weight is further away from center because of the moment of inertia rule, it will be harder to initiate a rotation, and also harder to stop a rotation once it is started.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:49 PM   #149
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Hi Martin, expanding on the wheel base question, how about track width.

This is my understanding, the wider the track width the more even the load on the inside and outside tyre theoretically resulting in more lateral grip.

But setup books suggest ie to increase front grip reduce the front track width.

Last edited by frozenpod; 03-18-2014 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:37 AM   #150
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For measuring droop, here is how I do it:

Droop Suspension Setting

Quick droop question

(go down to post 21)

Last edited by calvin; 03-19-2014 at 02:51 AM.
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