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Old 03-19-2014, 12:44 AM   #61
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Thumbs up Kyosho Plazma upgrades

Cool tell Steve that you saw the parts on Jason Seamans (from Red digitals) car. He will know right away who you are talking about. You reminded me I need to pick up some more tires the stock wheels and tires work well. Kyosho has a tweek board that will be out soon. I will be pre ordering one. It's for 12th scale only. It's on the Web site if you want to check it out.
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Old 03-20-2014, 09:11 AM   #62
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Going to try to get some more testing/tuning on my car this coming Saturday at the carpet track. Debating strongly between 21.5 and 17.5 as the motor for the class I am trying to get started. I am trying to stay away from the 1-cell LiPo since this car gives you the option to run 2-cell. Personally, I would prefer 17.5 but that may be way too fast for some.
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Old 03-20-2014, 07:11 PM   #63
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Going to try to get some more testing/tuning on my car this coming Saturday at the carpet track. Debating strongly between 21.5 and 17.5 as the motor for the class I am trying to get started. I am trying to stay away from the 1-cell LiPo since this car gives you the option to run 2-cell. Personally, I would prefer 17.5 but that may be way too fast for some.

Another cool thing about this car is that you don't necessarily have to true the tires down like you do for a regular 12th scale. All of my test runs have been with uncut tires out of the box and the car handles just fine. In fact, it might be better for scale realism not to true them and just run them as-is out of the box/package and just let them naturally wear down. Just a thought.......
Ive never really run foams before so thats the thing that worries me most and I dont have a tyre truer either. So its possible to just buy normal 12th tyres and run them out of the box? Im planning to run the car on tarmac only, on 2 different tracks: A medium size 1/10th touring car track and a small 1/8th scale track. I was planning to start with a 13.5 & 2 cell and see how that was. Is there tyres available that will give reasonable grip and last a while? I really dont want to be getting through a set every 3 runs.

Would it be a terrible idea to maybe keep the motors/cell rules as open as possible? If people find a 17.5 is too fast for them, they can just run a 21.5. I always get frustrated with stock classes because when you limit the motor I find people just spend the money in other places to try and gain an advantage and they end up becoming really expensive to compete in. If you keep the motor and cell stuff open then in theory people can use gear they already have and will be more likely to shell out on one of these awesome cars in the first place. Im a 1/10th offroad guy normally so I will probably try just using my normal off-road motors (6.5/7.5) with 1 cell and hope its not too crazy. I suspect it might be so i'll probably end up with 2 cell and a 13.5 or 17.5 maybe, although like I said im going to be running it on fairly open tracks, by 12th standards anyway. Cant wait to get this thing! Let us know how the 17.5/21.5 tests go
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Old 03-21-2014, 08:10 AM   #64
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..........Would it be a terrible idea to maybe keep the motors/cell rules as open as possible? If people find a 17.5 is too fast for them, they can just run a 21.5. I always get frustrated with stock classes because when you limit the motor I find people just spend the money in other places to try and gain an advantage and they end up becoming really expensive to compete in. If you keep the motor and cell stuff open then in theory people can use gear they already have and will be more likely to shell out on one of these awesome cars in the first place. Im a 1/10th offroad guy normally so I will probably try just using my normal off-road motors (6.5/7.5) with 1 cell and hope its not too crazy. I suspect it might be so i'll probably end up with 2 cell and a 13.5 or 17.5 maybe, although like I said im going to be running it on fairly open tracks, by 12th standards anyway. Cant wait to get this thing! Let us know how the 17.5/21.5 tests go
When starting a new class, you have to have a base to work from. From a saying I heard a few years ago, "You can break the rules, you can't make broken rules!" If this class of cars is to succeed, you have to have a foundation in which to build the class up. If you start with "open everything" rules, then the class is doomed before it ever got off the ground. This is why folks like Racin and I are experimenting with different motor/battery combinations to see what might be viable for a base to build the class up. Personally, a 17.5 with 2-cell is what I like but the car may be way too fast for others to handle. If they get turned off by having a car that is too fast and they crash and break alot, then they give up and move to something else. I have participated in two "run what you brung" type classes and the results are one is already dead and the other is on life support.

I am trying to take an example from USVTA. Why is this class still around and still strong in many areas, they have a basic set of clearly defined rules to work by. Very little grey area in their rules and everyone knows what to run (what is legal and what is not). This class will be a good class and viable alternative to regular 12th scale if we keep things simple. Trick it up too much, then it will never go anywhere.
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Old 03-21-2014, 10:39 AM   #65
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When starting a new class, you have to have a base to work from. From a saying I heard a few years ago, "You can break the rules, you can't make broken rules!" If this class of cars is to succeed, you have to have a foundation in which to build the class up. If you start with "open everything" rules, then the class is doomed before it ever got off the ground. This is why folks like Racin and I are experimenting with different motor/battery combinations to see what might be viable for a base to build the class up. Personally, a 17.5 with 2-cell is what I like but the car may be way too fast for others to handle. If they get turned off by having a car that is too fast and they crash and break alot, then they give up and move to something else. I have participated in two "run what you brung" type classes and the results are one is already dead and the other is on life support.

I am trying to take an example from USVTA. Why is this class still around and still strong in many areas, they have a basic set of clearly defined rules to work by. Very little grey area in their rules and everyone knows what to run (what is legal and what is not). This class will be a good class and viable alternative to regular 12th scale if we keep things simple. Trick it up too much, then it will never go anywhere.
Its funny, my defintion of tricking things up to much is exacty the opposite to you ie, to make it a stock class with motor rules. Its completely alien and slightly senseless to me but I guess I have to accept that people love stock classes! Haha.

But its difficult right off the bat because like you say by making it 17.5 you risk alienating less experienced drivers who would find it too fast and by making it 21.5 you risk putting off the more experienced guys who want to enjoy some speed. If you make it 17.5 then the fast guys can go fast and the slower drivers can in theory still run a 21.5 if they want? In a way Kyosho has helped us out a bit as the car comes with a G20 right? So whats that like out of the box? If you keep it more open then you could just recommend to less experienced people they run the kit motor for a while till they're ready for a 17.5?

I guess I see it as a good class to bring new people in to the hobby because the cars look so good out of the box and if you let them run the stock motor they need to spend less money to get going

Last edited by Danny355; 03-21-2014 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 03-21-2014, 11:54 AM   #66
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Danny,
VTA is the slowest of all the touring car classes and yet it's had good growth. That's because the emphassis IS NOT SOLELY ON THE PERFORMANCE OF THE CAR. VTA is primarily about the appearance of the cars. The vintage bodies and limited ability of the tires help that situation.
I know for fact there is a group working on a Vintage 12th scale class. I can also tell you that all the "testing" you're trying to do has already been done.
I can also say that, like VTA, overall performance has to be appropriate and work in harmony with appearance. For example, VTA only allows a certain tire. The rules even dictate that these tires can't be run with no tread showing. So what happens to a 12th scale car when the tires can't be cut down to almost nothing. Would you still run a fast motor/esc combo. probably not. Tire size would be considered a concession to scale appearance.
In addition...why would you bother buying a scale wheel if all you're concerned about is absolute performance ? Yes, that option is soon to play out.
Lastly, performance driven classes are great but they're only good for one type of person...the experienced racer. What about all those potential NEW racers ? VTA is raced by beginner and expert alike because the skill curve is much smaller. For someone to become good in VTA takes far less than what it takes to get good in many other classes...especially the faster ones.
As I write, the Kyosho LM is being driven in comparison tests with other 12th scale cars to see where it might fit. I don't have to tell you that the biggest hurdle for the LM is it's uniqueness. That's usually great for "cool" factor but worthless for longevity.
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Old 03-21-2014, 01:22 PM   #67
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The G20 motor is plenty fast for sure if you run a 2 cell. I ran my stock motor as long as I could and had a great time until the brushes got tired.
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Old 03-21-2014, 02:50 PM   #68
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Yeah I can imagine! Last time I raced a 20 brushed was roughly equivalent to a 10.5 brushless, is that still the case?
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Old 03-21-2014, 02:56 PM   #69
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rctrackman,

Thanks for understanding what I was trying to relay and the direction I am trying to head. These are niche' cars for sure. Like any niche' product, trying to get established racing programs to include you in the established classes is extremely hard in a lot of areas. Then, it is trying to maintain the racer numbers for the class to justify being included each scheduled raceday. But, having a base to build upon goes a long way to keeping the class established and healthy. Also, having clear rules that leave little for interpretation/grey area, helps make the class stable.
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Old 03-21-2014, 02:58 PM   #70
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Danny,
I can also tell you that all the "testing" you're trying to do has already been done.
You've clearly made a lot of assumptions or just plain misunderstood what Im saying. Im not going to be running the car on carpet or indoors ever, only on much more open outdoor tracks. You've confused me talking about my plans for running the car and me giving an alternate opinion to yours on motor limted/stock classes.

You know someone thats tested a LM with a 6.5/7.5/13.5 with 1 & 2 Cell around Crystal Palace and WLRC? Wow, thats incredible. Please put me in touch with them

Last edited by Danny355; 03-21-2014 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 03-21-2014, 03:02 PM   #71
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The G20 motor is plenty fast for sure if you run a 2 cell. I ran my stock motor as long as I could and had a great time until the brushes got tired.
Racin,

I would love to run just the brushed motor only. But since most in my area that are interested already have brushless gear, I decided not to get into that fight. Thnking about putting the 21.5 back in it but going with the 88T spur (from my Kyosho Plazma F1) and going up a tooth or two in the pinion.
With a 2-cell LiPo, 21.5 is the new 17.5 in these cars.
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Old 03-21-2014, 10:10 PM   #72
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Danny355,
My apologies. I meant no disrespect at all. In fact I may have addressed my statements to you by mistake. I think my comments were better directed to JLock. Either way, they were meant to support the idea that a vintage based 12th scale class has merit and the vta comparison is valid. I was basically trying to say "stay focused" on vta as a model. Don't stray from the the basics of that class and get sucked into the "performance is all that's important" vacuum. I strongly agree with anyone who sees VTA as a model for vintage class racing.
If my comments were misdirected I'm sorry. For that matter and in my honest opinion, any Can Am or GTP styled ride is fantastic. Can't wait to have a Kyosho LM in my collection.
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Old 03-22-2014, 02:42 PM   #73
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Danny355,
My apologies. I meant no disrespect at all. In fact I may have addressed my statements to you by mistake. I think my comments were better directed to JLock. Either way, they were meant to support the idea that a vintage based 12th scale class has merit and the vta comparison is valid. I was basically trying to say "stay focused" on vta as a model. Don't stray from the the basics of that class and get sucked into the "performance is all that's important" vacuum. I strongly agree with anyone who sees VTA as a model for vintage class racing.
If my comments were misdirected I'm sorry. For that matter and in my honest opinion, any Can Am or GTP styled ride is fantastic. Can't wait to have a Kyosho LM in my collection.
No worries, I was a bit confused/offended as you can probably tell. Yeah I cant wait to get one of these either and will no doubt be checking here often for tips and advice!
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:41 PM   #74
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Danny355,
My apologies. I meant no disrespect at all. In fact I may have addressed my statements to you by mistake. I think my comments were better directed to JLock. Either way, they were meant to support the idea that a vintage based 12th scale class has merit and the vta comparison is valid. I was basically trying to say "stay focused" on vta as a model. Don't stray from the the basics of that class and get sucked into the "performance is all that's important" vacuum. I strongly agree with anyone who sees VTA as a model for vintage class racing.
If my comments were misdirected I'm sorry. For that matter and in my honest opinion, any Can Am or GTP styled ride is fantastic. Can't wait to have a Kyosho LM in my collection.
rctrackman,

I understand completely about building classes and trying to do it with a playing field as level as possible. This is why I am experimenting with several motor to see what would work best to get this class off the ground. I would prefer to use the kit tires and bodies but don't want the class to be too fast as not to scare some potential participants away but fast enough as to attract some racers (maybe as a second class for them). This is why I used VTA as an example to Danny in a previous post. Too many don't want a defined set of rules so that they can spend their way to the top of a class. I would like to establish this class the same way VTA was established.
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Old 03-24-2014, 02:27 PM   #75
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Hey JLock, you know what would be cool, get some videos of your car up on Youtube so we can see what a 17.5 / 21.5 actually looks like. Also there arnt many videos of the LM up there, a few from Japan I found but theres no US videos yet! Doesnt have to be pro quality, would just be cool to see

Last edited by Danny355; 03-25-2014 at 12:41 AM.
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