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Old 12-27-2013, 08:16 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrtv20 View Post
My suggestion for rules:
  • Races are done with 2 man teams
  • 8 minute qualifiers
  • each driver must race at least 1 qualifier (no driver swaps in qualifiers)
  • 15 minute main
  • 1 mandatory pit stop between 6-10 minutes, must include driver change
  • pit stop must be in designated area, driver must leave stand, swap radio for car with second driver. second driver returns to stand then car is placed back on track.
  • NO RUNNING during pit stop / driver change.
This is awesome. It sets the class apart from other classes, and encourages more drivers to participate.

Part of the fun of doing enduros is the driver swapping. Unfortunately enduros aren't run very often. Now we'll get to do races with teams and driver swaps every time we race!

If there isn't enough time to do all of this racing during a normal race day, then we could go to just two qualifiers, with each team driver doing one. That puts more emphasis on staying out of trouble, which is what endurance racing is all about.
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Old 12-27-2013, 08:24 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
This is awesome. It sets the class apart from other classes, and encourages more drivers to participate.

Part of the fun of doing enduros is the driver swapping. Unfortunately enduros aren't run very often. Now we'll get to do races with teams and driver swaps every time we race!

If there isn't enough time to do all of this racing during a normal race day, then we could go to just two qualifiers, with each team driver doing one. That puts more emphasis on staying out of trouble, which is what endurance racing is all about.
Best average laps for pole, tie breaker is fastest lap between cars.
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Old 12-27-2013, 08:31 AM   #78
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I agree that there are 2 sides to this spec question, nobody wants to buy a new car if they only need a body and tires and nobody wants to by a "spec" car only to allow an open chassis rule once the class gets going.

I'm guessing the VTA guess are driving the rules for this class? They like to put US in front of everything so for USLMS (US Le-Mans Series )

They seem to be ok with setting dates for rule changes so I would say, make 2 different sets of chassis specs.

My suggestion for chassis specs until JUNE 2014:
  • Speed Passion LM-1
  • Speed Passion LM Body
  • 21.5 Blinky ESC
  • 2s Battery
  • Spec LM-1 foam tire with minimum starting diameter

Chassis specs after June 2014:
  • Any pan car style chassis
  • Speed Passion LM Body (Will expand as others are available)
  • Width: 205mm
  • Wheelbase: 270-285mm
  • Min Weight: 1200g
  • 21.5 Blinky ESC
  • 2s Battery
  • Spec RUBBER tire (whatever becomes the cheap go-to rubber tire solution)

I'm sure I am forgetting something...
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Old 12-27-2013, 08:33 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
This is awesome. It sets the class apart from other classes, and encourages more drivers to participate.

Part of the fun of doing enduros is the driver swapping. Unfortunately enduros aren't run very often. Now we'll get to do races with teams and driver swaps every time we race!

If there isn't enough time to do all of this racing during a normal race day, then we could go to just two qualifiers, with each team driver doing one. That puts more emphasis on staying out of trouble, which is what endurance racing is all about.
I tried to come up with something that was fun yet fits into a normal race day, I don't think this should add any time to a race day. The race program itself can stay consistent as well as there are no special requirements for the computer.
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Old 12-27-2013, 08:52 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
Best average laps for pole, tie breaker is fastest lap between cars.
Or lowest standard deviation for qualifying order. That might shake things up a bit.
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Old 12-27-2013, 08:55 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
Best average laps for pole, tie breaker is fastest lap between cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
Or lowest standard deviation for qualifying order. That might shake things up a bit.
At least with a 15 minute race plus driver change that would make qualifying order not as important so something as you guys suggested would be fun.
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:58 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrtv20 View Post
I agree that there are 2 sides to this spec question, nobody wants to buy a new car if they only need a body and tires and nobody wants to by a "spec" car only to allow an open chassis rule once the class gets going.

I'm guessing the VTA guess are driving the rules for this class? They like to put US in front of everything so for USLMS (US Le-Mans Series )

They seem to be ok with setting dates for rule changes so I would say, make 2 different sets of chassis specs.

My suggestion for chassis specs until JUNE 2014:
  • Speed Passion LM-1
  • Speed Passion LM Body
  • 21.5 Blinky ESC
  • 2s Battery
  • Spec LM-1 foam tire with minimum starting diameter

Chassis specs after June 2014:
  • Any pan car style chassis
  • Speed Passion LM Body (Will expand as others are available)
  • Width: 205mm
  • Wheelbase: 270-285mm
  • Min Weight: 1200g
  • 21.5 Blinky ESC
  • 2s Battery
  • Spec RUBBER tire (whatever becomes the cheap go-to rubber tire solution)

I'm sure I am forgetting something...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrtv20 View Post
I like what you are thinking; something has to be special about the RACING and not the car.

8 minute qualifiers, 2 driver teams, each driver must complete at least (1) qualifier, 15 minute main with (1) pit stop between 7-9 minutes, must include driver swap.
SOunds workable on both fronts...kinda gives a feel of ALMS/RSCS/TUSC racing (or even the old pre-WEC LMS)
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Old 12-27-2013, 02:36 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrtv20 View Post
I agree that there are 2 sides to this spec question, nobody wants to buy a new car if they only need a body and tires and nobody wants to by a "spec" car only to allow an open chassis rule once the class gets going.

I'm guessing the VTA guess are driving the rules for this class? They like to put US in front of everything so for USLMS (US Le-Mans Series )

They seem to be ok with setting dates for rule changes so I would say, make 2 different sets of chassis specs.

My suggestion for chassis specs until JUNE 2014:
  • Speed Passion LM-1
  • Speed Passion LM Body
  • 21.5 Blinky ESC
  • 2s Battery
  • Spec LM-1 foam tire with minimum starting diameter

Chassis specs after June 2014:
  • Any pan car style chassis
  • Speed Passion LM Body (Will expand as others are available)
  • Width: 205mm
  • Wheelbase: 270-285mm
  • Min Weight: 1200g
  • 21.5 Blinky ESC
  • 2s Battery
  • Spec RUBBER tire (whatever becomes the cheap go-to rubber tire solution)

I'm sure I am forgetting something...
I would reverse those dates. More open up front and then split.

Rob King and Rick Vessell basically came up with your later format except rubber tires and 17.5 and single point tire mounting for the USSRCA format.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:08 PM   #84
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I really think that we need to try to foment as much growth out of the LM1 chassis as possible. What we don't want is to open things up and this turns into a price war with various converted chassis and what not.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:34 PM   #85
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I always liked the idea of 21.5 just to integrate them with USGT cars to allow the possibility of an enduro style race but I understand they want them to be faster. I bet a pan car on a 17.5 2S is close to 13.5 1S anybody know how close they are in speed?

I hope Rob and Rick consider a fun race format to make these cars unique to race.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:47 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrtv20 View Post
I always liked the idea of 21.5 just to integrate them with USGT cars to allow the possibility of an enduro style race but I understand they want them to be faster. I bet a pan car on a 17.5 2S is close to 13.5 1S anybody know how close they are in speed?

I hope Rob and Rick consider a fun race format to make these cars unique to race.
The format that has been used is identical to the UF1 minus pit stops.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:56 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrtv20 View Post
I always liked the idea of 21.5 just to integrate them with USGT cars to allow the possibility of an enduro style race but I understand they want them to be faster. I bet a pan car on a 17.5 2S is close to 13.5 1S anybody know how close they are in speed?
Given sufficient traction, a 21.5/2s pan car will be much faster than a USGT car.

Here's a rule of thumb for motor power: A motor running on 2s requires double the number of turns to be the same power as a motor on 1s. So 21.5/2s is very close to 10.5/1s for power output. The extra battery weight will reduce the power/weight ratio a bit for the 2s combo.

A pan car running 17.5/2s will have about double the power/weight ratio as 13.5/1s. If there's enough traction to use the power, the 17.5/2s car will be much quicker. I believe someone here called 17.5/2s a "rocket ship", and that would be a good description, especially on a small-to-medium sized carpet track.

I have run a 17.5/1s pan car with foam tires against USGT cars, and the lap times were very similar.
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Old 12-27-2013, 04:23 PM   #88
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For comparison, here are the fastest laps of drivers in three A mains of the 2012 IIC:

Expert World GT 10.5:
Cyrul, Josh 9.240
D Agnolo, Pete 9.242

World GT 13.5:
Bohlman, Brian 9.845
Berger, Dave 9.980

Stock 17.5 Rubber Tire Sedan:
Xavier, Craig 10.269
Harrison, Austin 10.270

A 21.5/2s car will have a power-to-weight ratio in between WGT 10.5 and WGT 13.5. If that gives a lap time of somewhere in the 9.6 range, it's nearly 0.7 seconds (7%) faster than 17.5 TC. That's probably too fast to run together with USGT without ending in tears.
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Old 12-27-2013, 04:36 PM   #89
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I wouldn't think a 21.5 2s would be faster then a 13.5 WGT car? I race F1 and a WGT would kick my butt.
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Old 12-27-2013, 08:50 PM   #90
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I think Id go for a race meeting with USGT and LMP running separately and have a couple of the "classics" as special events: a 1.2 hour enduro (in the style of the 12 hours of Sebring) and a 2.4 hour event (in the style of Daytona and/or LeMans) where the two would have a "super main" where the classes run together. The separate mains would be as nrtv suggested (2 man teams, 15 minute mains with mandatory driver change...both drivers run at least 1/3 cume race distance to count for points, etc.)
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