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Old 12-26-2013, 10:25 AM   #61
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Nick,
I agree, I am not trying to deter or exclude people, but how would you feel if you invested in an LM1 and it was pretty much obsolete the first time you put it on track because of a homegrown car that uses special parts and tires?
This class needs to not worry about track records and fast laps, it needs to be about good racing, working together and being the center of attention every time it is on track. These cars will easily run 20-25 minutes on a battery, which I think is appropriate if you are going to do driver changes. In the interest of time you do a uf1 style qualifier to set the grid , maybe a 5 minute open session before the main and then run a 20-25 minute race with driver change. If you get 8-10 2man teams every time, that is a pretty good turnout.
I agree, nobody wants to lose to someone who can just 'buy' a victory. With a 21.5, having a spec tire pretty much evens out the field. cars are not to fast but the good drivers should be able to compete regardless.

I completely agree as well to your comment of 8-10 cars in a 20 minute race every week would be deemed a success. I would think people would line up and volunteer to be 2nd drivers if someone showed up with a car with no co-pilot; I know I will be! Double the racers and double the track time without having to double the investment.

Only negative on race day would be if this class extended a race day or required a special race program. As simple as UF1 is; experience shows that its tough to implement smoothly into a standard race day program.
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Old 12-26-2013, 11:40 AM   #62
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I would probably not want to see 12-20 guys on a stand trying to make a driver change...that would be pretty cramped I think. id say 3 man teams, 2 drivers 1 pit man. how to work the driver swap can be organized in testing
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Old 12-26-2013, 11:59 AM   #63
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I would think people would line up and volunteer to be 2nd drivers if someone showed up with a car with no co-pilot.
That's an excellent idea to get more guys interested. It works, too: I always have people interested in running my two "loaner cars", and they always have a great time. It also lets them try out 1/10 pan cars. Most of them have never run one before, and these guys are always amazed at how great they handle and how quick they go. Then I mention how cheap they are!
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:30 PM   #64
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Nick,
I agree, I am not trying to deter or exclude people, but how would you feel if you invested in an LM1 and it was pretty much obsolete the first time you put it on track because of a homegrown car that uses special parts and tires?
With the simplicity and speed of pan cars, what kind of advantage do you really think a home made car would have? I personally think none. Equalizing tires and motor on cars this simple pretty much nullify any other advantages. The rest comes down to tuning and driving.
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Old 12-26-2013, 02:51 PM   #65
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Amen to that.

Seen a F1 class that run alle 200MM on foam.
Just on type motor (don't matter brand only turns) and ESC.
Turned out that the F103 was as fast as the Corally F1 car.
It all depends on some rules and drivers.
That is why i thought the "old" WGT cars with a LMP,Group C or some sort of body could enter.
But from the reactions i see here it is a no no
We here in Europe will have a unofficialy european championship in the Pro10 class in march next year.
235MM cars, foam, motor no limit, bodies(not my choice) All group C and Lola nitro, heats 5 minutes and have fun.
This will be held in Germany on a 220M indoor asfalt track.
As there are almost no rules besides the car wide, foams and weight and battery limit, it could be fun and up to the drivers skills on what motor he can handle.
It is the same as with the Pro10 in Holland.
Just a few rules and have fun.
10.5 motor limit, esc boost, timing, whatever, foam, 200 or 235MM cars,Group C bodies or LMP and a minimum weight of 1200 grams.
Just having fun is the biggest rule we have and we see a growing crowd that run these cars again.
If you go overboard with the rules( as in excluding cars and tires) you will loose entries.
I know you need rules but keep it simple to start up the class and after it is growing, then you can tune the rules so everybody hase the same change of winning.
This is just my 2 cents.

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With the simplicity and speed of pan cars, what kind of advantage do you really think a home made car would have? I personally think none. Equalizing tires and motor on cars this simple pretty much nullify any other advantages. The rest comes down to tuning and driving.
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:40 PM   #66
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My point that I made on the LM1 Thread and i'll keep to that, is the fact that we need to build the numbers of LM1 runners before we try to get too much expansion into WGT converted cars, converted F1 cars and the like. I say for 2014 we ought to stick to the LM1 and maybe by the start of "indoor season" come late in the year then we can start trying to expand to a second class
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:47 PM   #67
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With the simplicity and speed of pan cars, what kind of advantage do you really think a home made car would have? I personally think none. Equalizing tires and motor on cars this simple pretty much nullify any other advantages. The rest comes down to tuning and driving.
Someone will always find a way to build a better mousetrap, I have seen it over and over again. There is always that one person that wants to reinvent the class before the first race is ever run. Whether or not the chassis are even is kind of irrelevant, it's about trying to keep everything reasonable so that it doesn't turn into a free for all
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Old 12-26-2013, 08:32 PM   #68
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My point that I made on the LM1 Thread and i'll keep to that, is the fact that we need to build the numbers of LM1 runners before we try to get too much expansion into WGT converted cars, converted F1 cars and the like. I say for 2014 we ought to stick to the LM1 and maybe by the start of "indoor season" come late in the year then we can start trying to expand to a second class
Agreed, and just to be fair I just fitted the SP rims on a 104 and threw a Courage body over it just to check track width. Not even close!!
Then I pulled an F102 off the shelf and it was closer but still stuck outside the body by 4-5mm per side. My suggestion for the 103GT's would be to mandate the USGT wheel and tire package as the spec. That will meet the 190 width of the Courage body
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:17 AM   #69
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My point that I made on the LM1 Thread and i'll keep to that, is the fact that we need to build the numbers of LM1 runners before we try to get too much expansion into WGT converted cars, converted F1 cars and the like. I say for 2014 we ought to stick to the LM1 and maybe by the start of "indoor season" come late in the year then we can start trying to expand to a second class
Requiring racers to buy a new car might be a tough sell. We probably have five guys locally who already have most of what they would need to compete in this class, but I don't think any of them will buy a new chassis for a class that doesn't yet exist. I wouldn't, since I already have way more 1/10 pan cars than any sane person needs.

Part of the appeal of VTA is that it permits the reuse of existing chassis. There's plenty of whining about the other brand/model restrictions (motors, approved ESC's). I don't think VTA would ever have happened if only one chassis were permitted. Since we seem to have far fewer guys interested in a prototype-bodied pan car class than guys interested in muscle cars, I think we need to be inclusive, not exclusive.
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:29 AM   #70
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I would probably not want to see 12-20 guys on a stand trying to make a driver change...that would be pretty cramped I think. id say 3 man teams, 2 drivers 1 pit man. how to work the driver swap can be organized in testing
The longer the race, the wider the window can be for the change. The driver change is strategy: Pick a time when no one else is in and there is no wrestling on the stand to get off or on. If there is, the bad pitstop is on you! The pit window can be announced by the race director. All it takes is an egg timer.

Pit the car to your team mate, walk off the stand, trade car and radio, place the car on track only when team mate is back at the driver ready position.

Driver must make engine reving sounds while the car is in the pit lane.
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:32 AM   #71
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The formula that has worked for vta and usgt is minimal chassis restriction, spec rubber (long wear) tire, and cheap electronics, and cool bodies most of all. There's a ton of 1/10 pan cars here that could be used if 1/10 pan to rubber tire wheel exists.
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:48 AM   #72
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Driver must make engine reving sounds while the car is in the pit lane.
The rule should include: "Engine sounds must be generated orally. No other body orifices permitted."
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Old 12-27-2013, 07:23 AM   #73
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The rule should include: "Engine sounds must be generated orally. No other body orifices permitted."
Oh come on! I ate all of that cabbage for nothing?
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Old 12-27-2013, 07:28 AM   #74
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Oh come on! I ate all of that cabbage for nothing?
Simulated fuel spill...
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Old 12-27-2013, 08:07 AM   #75
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The longer the race, the wider the window can be for the change. The driver change is strategy: Pick a time when no one else is in and there is no wrestling on the stand to get off or on. If there is, the bad pitstop is on you! The pit window can be announced by the race director. All it takes is an egg timer.

Pit the car to your team mate, walk off the stand, trade car and radio, place the car on track only when team mate is back at the driver ready position.

Driver must make engine reving sounds while the car is in the pit lane.
These idea's are great. Driver must swap radio for car to second driver who is waiting in designated area. Hopefully there is a gentlemen's agreement about not running or pushing to get on and off the stand.

I know where I race at (Hobby Stop West - Toledo) the stand is pretty narrow and moving quickly could cause an injury. But I like this idea.

I think the saying... BOOM goes the dynamite is appropriate!

My suggestion for rules:[LIST][*]Races are done with 2 man teams[*]8 minute qualifiers[*]each driver must race at least 1 qualifier (no driver swaps in qualifiers)[*]15 minute main[*]1 mandatory pit stop between 6-10 minutes, must include driver change[*]pit stop must be in designated area, driver must leave stand, swap radio for car with second driver. second driver returns to stand then car is placed back on track.[*]NO RUNNING during pit stop / driver change.[/LIST
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