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Old 01-23-2014, 08:47 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by Pro10noob View Post
@Howard.....Correct me if i am wrong but isn't the side to side dampening(springs also) to soft if you keep lifting the inside wheel??
When running the 235MM pro10 cars, we don't get it.
Not even the mod guys from what i have seen and those cars are beasts with there 4.5 motors

Regards Roy
Given sufficient grip, the inside tires will lift even with no suspension whatsoever (infinitely stiff springs). With a suspension, the handling is much more predictable when the front lifts before the rear (since the car tends to flip, spin, or diff out when the rear lifts).

We are dealing with 200mm cars here. My 235mm cars are better under these high grip conditions, as the extra width makes it much harder to lift the inside wheels off the track.

Of course, changing to harder front tires, harder front springs, etc., will reduce the lateral acceleration and help keep the tires on the ground. But the grip usually varies from corner to corner; in the corners where the grip isn't as high, I still want the car to have maximum lateral acceleration, so I don't want to make any of these changes.
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:20 AM   #242
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If my experience in f1 transfers at all rubber tires wear much much longer on pan cars. Most times it takes a few runs to break them in properly.

The other thing is foam tires basically makes this wgt. No matter what the tires will end up being trued down to rubber bands. Not to mention the cars will drive much differently. Pin it and steer is what should be avoided here.
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:27 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by mikel33 View Post
I'll be honest, after watching the race this weekend with Rick and the others I think the foams are the way to go, at least on carpet. Perhaps outlaw truing them down past some meaningful diameter.
Minimum diameter is another thing to tech and argue about when someone thinks their caliper is more accurate than someone else's. Also the complaints about having to toss tires no longer large enough to be legal but still completely useful.

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Originally Posted by Kevin K View Post
I agree keep it with foams for Carpet IMO.
You keep quiet mister!

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X2 That's why I bought one.
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Originally Posted by Grenade10 View Post
I can't believe I have not seen this thread since it started. I have an older Tamiya with a Castrol Jag GTP mounted and gold / chrome basket weave wheels with rubber tires .. Not that it will ever leave the display case.

But, I'm looking at doing a 200mm Darkside WGT car. Would the old ProtoForm GT1 body that was re-issued as the Mulsane be acceptable? I think I still have a few if these.

Howard / Rick pm me with what you are thinking for wheels / tires for foam and rubber. Still have many Road Wizards and parts.

Mark
Mulsanne, if you have one, is OK. I know Dale is excited about this class and is thinking of body/bodies he could do.

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Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
We should add the Mulsanne to the list. It's not currently in production, but Protoform might be tempted to do another run if it were. It's very pretty!

The tires might be a tight fit under it, as it seemed to be designed for cut-down foams on the front, and narrow rears (narrower than WGT, anyway).

There's an unpainted Mulsanne buried in my closet if you need/want it.



I also would prefer foam tires, and the Speed Passion tires would be a good choice for spec at $30 for a pair. As far as I know, proper (read belted) rubber tires don't currently exist. But the decision is Rick's, and I'll support whatever that is.

We had talked about minimum foam tire diameters in the previous threads, but that still doesn't prevent someone from cutting a new set down to whatever the minimum is. I wouldn't do that myself, as I won't be running for the win. But I understand Rick's reasoning to try and prevent it. FYI, LMP2 cars have tires of about 23" O.D., so 2.3" minimum might be a good number.
See above answer about minimum legal diameter. Just means more sets cut down to close to the limit, just like WGT is now.

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Originally Posted by Pro10noob View Post
Just don't permit cutting the tires at all.
The one thing you may do them is rounding off the side walls and apply tire saucing.
If some one has to true the tires because of damage to them, then let some one of the tech inspectors overview it so no one will cut them to a minimum.

Regards Roy
Not cutting tires won't work over here on most of our carpet tracks. The traction is too high and the cars flip. I spent the better part of my day trying to keep the car on the ground until I took some height out of the tires. I didn't go crazy and cut them super short but I did cut them down some. I also glued the outer sidewalls on both the front and rear tires. If you watch the videos in the SP LM1 thread that Howard posted, that's the biggest difference between my car and some of the others.

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Originally Posted by scootr117 View Post
I'm building one of my WGT cars like the guys have above. I understand the thinking for the rubber tires... I disagree it will solve the tire cost. I see TC guys going to fresh tires every other run at big races to get that 0.2 sec a lap they lose after three runs. Add to that the hassle of glueing and re-glueing the tires (even pre-mounts) . I can get a weekend out of a set at the Indoor Champs and 3 weeks from a set at normal club races and practice days by rotation and starting them at 2.08"... When those get to 2.02" ...I put them in a bag to use at big races.

I do hope the class takes off and turns into something cool. I believe it would be fun to watch.
We were thinking of a rubber tire similar to the kind used currently for F1. Pits seem to last a long time with almost no discernible performance loss. One run or limited run tires (rubber or foam) is what we are trying to avoid.

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Originally Posted by Pro10noob View Post
@Howard.....Correct me if i am wrong but isn't the side to side dampening(springs also) to soft if you keep lifting the inside wheel??
When running the 235MM pro10 cars, we don't get it.
Not even the mod guys from what i have seen and those cars are beasts with there 4.5 motors

Regards Roy
Again, traction here is much higher on carpet and even sprayed asphalt. I've seen 235 cars flip before on carpet when the traction is through the roof.

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Originally Posted by nrtv20 View Post
In my opinion the only problem with foam tires is if there is a drastic speed/handling difference between a fresh set and a set that has been run down close to the rim. I know the rules mandate a minimum but with a local club respect that? Probably not, I've never seen my local club tech/inspect anything. So in that respect I would welcome in rubber tires.

Sure I am honorable but I wouldn't trust anyone else!

As for the WGT comment; I think the new body from Team Muso LM-P is pretty great for those guys that want to convert. The question being; can they run the Speed Passion tires under that body? If not, how different is a car running the Speed Passion tires vs running the Spec WGT tires (with color band)?

[I]Testing will be conducted to determine if this is a viable avenue. We are trying to stick to the single nut attachment though to avoid standard 4 bolt pan car wheels. Too easy to slip exotic foam on a wheel with colored band still present. I personally have seen this done and know it happens.[/I]I think the best thing for this class is the rules of USLMP and having a spec rubber tire. I think a rubber tire evens out the chassis way more then a spec foam tire does due to the lower grip levels.

If there becomes too much disparity in speeds between a converted WGT and LM-1's whether due to allowing 1S 13.5 vs 2S 21.5 or tire choice then run it as a break out class at a time that is attainable by both cars.
We also wanted to limit the power to one requirement (2S 21.5) to eliminate any disparity real or perceived. 2S 21.5 is readily available, especially if someone is already running F1, USGT, etc.

2S also allows any ESC in blinky mode to be used. Until recently 1S meant boosters or rx packs. I know there are 1S compatible ESCs now but that's another item to purchase if you don't already have one.
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:26 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Rick Vessell View Post
...We also wanted to limit the power to one requirement (2S 21.5) to eliminate any disparity real or perceived. 2S 21.5 is readily available, especially if someone is already running F1, USGT, etc.

2S also allows any ESC in blinky mode to be used. Until recently 1S meant boosters or rx packs. I know there are 1S compatible ESCs now but that's another item to purchase if you don't already have one.
I think the 2S 21.5 is a great choice; plenty fast and gives a track the option to run with USGT if there are not enough entrants or to run an LeMans race.

I only made the 1S 13.5 comment to show support for the WGT drivers that have nothing else and could just buy a body. Running a break out time gives them the opportunity to still play and just adjust gearing.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:01 PM   #245
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I only made the 1S 13.5 comment to show support for the WGT drivers that have nothing else and could just buy a body. Running a break out time gives them the opportunity to still play and just adjust gearing.
We have plenty of LeMans/GTP style bodies in our Breakout class here!

Breakout racing shares a common trait with real LeMans endurance racing: the goal isn't to go as fast as possible, but to hit a target pace.

Instead of "Racing To WIN!", Billy Sydor calls it "Racing to NOT LOSE!".

(He also refers to pan cars with foam tires as "Zambonis".)

We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread...
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:39 PM   #246
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I think that a 21.5 could be had without having to break the bank.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:45 PM   #247
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Ugh, I was interested after seeing the Team Muso shell on RedRC, but if it's going rubber, I'll just stick with WGT, and F1 if I ever get my car.

Sydor calls foam cars "zambonies" We call rubber tire cars "groove erasers".....
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:10 PM   #248
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LOL

Regards Roy

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Sydor calls foam cars "zambonies" We call rubber tire cars "groove erasers".....
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:21 PM   #249
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Foam tires wouldn't necessarily make it another WGT class...that would only be true if you stick with the lilac spec tire. If you keep the tires open like 1/12th it would be a very different class.
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:33 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
Foam tires wouldn't necessarily make it another WGT class...that would only be true if you stick with the lilac spec tire. If you keep the tires open like 1/12th it would be a very different class.
Just my two cents but if there is not a spec tire I'm not interested. Not

getting

into tire wars
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:36 PM   #251
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WGT needs a bit of a cleanup and some rules updating, but is still a viable class.

Back on topic: There are two aspects that seriously need keep in mind for this class.

1. We are racing for fun. That implies passing, back and forth. Multiple passing lanes, different techniques, learning etiquette, developing skills and some good humored ribbing.

2. The faster we go, the less racing we do. I don't care for 8 minutes of parade laps, followed by someone complaining about me ruing his one true perfect lap in the pits, after being lapped a couple times by the track "Ace" hole.
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Old 01-24-2014, 08:14 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
Ugh, I was interested after seeing the Team Muso shell on RedRC, but if it's going rubber, I'll just stick with WGT, and F1 if I ever get my car.


Sydor calls foam cars "zambonies" We call rubber tire cars "groove erasers".....
Don't be such a poop Ian. You can always run the new bodies on your WGT cars at your track.

As for groove erasing. I've run at tracks that are primarily rubber tires (TC, VTA, USGT, etc.) with my foam tire cars and not had any issues with lack of traction. Must be an Ohio thing?

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Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
Foam tires wouldn't necessarily make it another WGT class...that would only be true if you stick with the lilac spec tire. If you keep the tires open like 1/12th it would be a very different class.
If they're cut down to work it will be. When ran outdoors on asphalt if the tires are open then the compounds that work best on asphalt will come out. Something the general privateer will probably not want to pay for and/or race against. That means less people running once they get lapped by someone with different tires.

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Just my two cents but if there is not a spec tire I'm not interested. Not

getting

into tire wars
This is what we are trying to avoid with tire rules.

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Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
WGT needs a bit of a cleanup and some rules updating, but is still a viable class.

Back on topic: There are two aspects that seriously need keep in mind for this class.

1. We are racing for fun. That implies passing, back and forth. Multiple passing lanes, different techniques, learning etiquette, developing skills and some good humored ribbing.

2. The faster we go, the less racing we do. I don't care for 8 minutes of parade laps, followed by someone complaining about me ruing his one true perfect lap in the pits, after being lapped a couple times by the track "Ace" hole.
Good to see you understand the direction we're trying to take this class in.

There are plenty of other 'take no prisoners' options out there for people who want to run with minimum restrictions. Sedan, 12th scale, WGT are all available for those who want to go as fast as possible.
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Old 01-24-2014, 08:24 AM   #253
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I compared the rubber tire sizes on my F104 and F103 cars and here's what I found...


None of these tires would meet the USLMP Rule for 50 mm Max tire diameter. Maybe the Tamiya Mini Tires would be small enough, but it would be impossible to lower the rear axle far enough to accommodate such small tires.
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Old 01-24-2014, 08:33 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by wwddww34 View Post
I compared the rubber tire sizes on my F104 and F103 cars and here's what I found...


None of these tires would meet the USLMP Rule for 50 mm Max tire diameter. Maybe the Tamiya Mini Tires would be small enough, but it would be impossible to lower the rear axle far enough to accommodate such small tires.
So, with the new bit of information coming to light, it looks like the tire rule needs to be re-evaluated.
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Old 01-24-2014, 09:01 AM   #255
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We should have the LMP body in stock shortly. Building up mine as we speak....
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