AMBrc PT Clone/replacement
07-13-2005, 05:25 PM
#46
The rc ones are a bargin compared to the karting and MX ones.
http://www.supersporttiming.co.uk/US...ansponders.asp
http://www.supersporttiming.co.uk/US...ansponders.asp
07-13-2005, 08:42 PM
#47
AMB was smart. They just waited until races started saying "PT required".
THEN they jacked it up to $85
I just looked at July 2002's exchange rate. It was virtually 1=1. Today its 1.20 dollars per Euro.
$55 x 1.20 = $66 old price times current rate --shows a $11 hike due to exchange rate change
$85 x .828 = 70 Euros current price USD converted into Euros
They definitely raised the price.
THEN they jacked it up to $85
I just looked at July 2002's exchange rate. It was virtually 1=1. Today its 1.20 dollars per Euro.
$55 x 1.20 = $66 old price times current rate --shows a $11 hike due to exchange rate change
$85 x .828 = 70 Euros current price USD converted into Euros
They definitely raised the price.
07-13-2005, 09:30 PM
#48
So, what is the problem with two people having the same transponder number? The only time that it is a problem is when those two people are in the same race... With so many out there I would almost not worry about cloning any number.
To answer the question, I would clone any of my three.
To answer the question, I would clone any of my three.
07-14-2005, 06:44 AM
#49
Originally Posted by CypressMidWest
Has anybody given any thought to the legality of "cloned pt's"?
If you program a $00.10 pic chip, add couple of cheap electronic components, put on a small PCB, and if one of the things that happens when it goes under or over the AMBrc system it clicks over your lap etc I dont believe it would apply.
You are not ripping off the design. You are designing something that is compatible with the AMBrc system.
If it is a clone, would you be entitled to making a "working" copy, so as to keep your original in a safe and pristine condition?
Thoughts?
07-14-2005, 08:17 AM
#50
Tech Addict
Originally Posted by Thor_jnb
Depends how you approach it.
If you program a $00.10 pic chip, add couple of cheap electronic components, put on a small PCB, and if one of the things that happens when it goes under or over the AMBrc system it clicks over your lap etc I dont believe it would apply.
You are not ripping off the design. You are designing something that is compatible with the AMBrc system.
If it is a clone, would you be entitled to making a "working" copy, so as to keep your original in a safe and pristine condition?
Thoughts?
If you program a $00.10 pic chip, add couple of cheap electronic components, put on a small PCB, and if one of the things that happens when it goes under or over the AMBrc system it clicks over your lap etc I dont believe it would apply.
You are not ripping off the design. You are designing something that is compatible with the AMBrc system.
If it is a clone, would you be entitled to making a "working" copy, so as to keep your original in a safe and pristine condition?
Thoughts?
AMB can copyright the software in the transponder, but they can't copyright or patent the signal the transponder gives out. Only governments can do that. Anyone can design an electronic circuit that gives out same kind of signal.
If I was manufacturing transponders and couldn't keep up with demand I'd raise my price to lower the demand. I'd make more money and I could lower the price again when I could meet demand. My 2 c.
07-14-2005, 04:49 PM
#51
Hi again andsetinn, yes I remember you and that E-mail from last year. Re the number of AMB20 systems in use, last year we did a survey and asked clubs in the UK what system they use. We found that 60% use the older AMB20 system and 40% use AMBrc so in the UK at least it looks like it's not nearly no one uses AMB20! As I said there are many clubs that can't afford the new AMBrc system and who rely on us to change batteries in their transponders (we can do AMBrc batteries as well) and by developing our MRT AMB20 compatible PT's they can now go on using their AMB20 systems for a long time yet. Some people can't afford a new AMB system just as some people still use 5 year old computers.
Nothing has happened to change my mind I just happened to see Thor_jnb's cry for help, as I said we don't have plans to make an AMBrc personal transponder (subtle answer here) only AMB can make an AMB one, we could make our own MRT version and that wouldn't be one made by AMB. They could be a similar size and could be a 'clone' of an existing number or if we were to make one on a 'new' number it may or may not be a clone of one already in existence because we don't know what numbers exist. As timmay70 said what's the problem with two people having the same number as long as they don't turn up at the same time, and the chances of this happening are very low. However that is one 'issue' that could cause problems.
As I said we could make our own version but the reasons not to apart from the expensive development costs are the small market size (most people who want PT's have them already) and the fact that people may not trust another company and clubs may not allow use of non AMB PT's. These are unknowns that could cause us problems. Also RFID systems amongst other things could challenge the dominance of AMB although RFID has yet to be proven as a viable (accuracy/reliability) low cost alternative that works. There are other potential difficulties as jakeburns says, the changeover and AMB compatibility problems plus existing race control software needing to be available that would run with the new RFID systems.
I think robk is right about prices they seem to have been increased and it appears that house transponder prices have been increased by even more compared to PT's. Maybe that has the (intended?) result that clubs stop using them and everyone ends up having to use PT's.
Nothing has happened to change my mind I just happened to see Thor_jnb's cry for help, as I said we don't have plans to make an AMBrc personal transponder (subtle answer here) only AMB can make an AMB one, we could make our own MRT version and that wouldn't be one made by AMB. They could be a similar size and could be a 'clone' of an existing number or if we were to make one on a 'new' number it may or may not be a clone of one already in existence because we don't know what numbers exist. As timmay70 said what's the problem with two people having the same number as long as they don't turn up at the same time, and the chances of this happening are very low. However that is one 'issue' that could cause problems.
As I said we could make our own version but the reasons not to apart from the expensive development costs are the small market size (most people who want PT's have them already) and the fact that people may not trust another company and clubs may not allow use of non AMB PT's. These are unknowns that could cause us problems. Also RFID systems amongst other things could challenge the dominance of AMB although RFID has yet to be proven as a viable (accuracy/reliability) low cost alternative that works. There are other potential difficulties as jakeburns says, the changeover and AMB compatibility problems plus existing race control software needing to be available that would run with the new RFID systems.
I think robk is right about prices they seem to have been increased and it appears that house transponder prices have been increased by even more compared to PT's. Maybe that has the (intended?) result that clubs stop using them and everyone ends up having to use PT's.
07-14-2005, 09:15 PM
#52
As I said we could make our own version but the reasons not to apart from the expensive development costs are the small market size (most people who want PT's have them already)...
Using our Club (which may or may not be atypical) as an example. I am a relative new member. Club has existed since the "heady" days of 1995. Numbers have fluctuated over the years, with each new year showing a number of new members, and a number retiring. In the last 2 years numbers on the up. Currently are running at around 50 RACING members, who race fortnightly. Then there are the members who only race in the finer months.
Our Club uses the AMBrc system. S/W I believe is Allycat (not sure). I have spoken to 20 members. Five have P/T, but would like a clone, as race two classes. Fifteen would like one or more P/T but cost is delaying their purchases.
If everyone was to poll their Clubs, it may give you some market data (thou hardly scientific), but none the less, a snapshot of the market.
I will post a poll in Australian forum, asking what system Clubs use.
07-14-2005, 09:51 PM
#53
I'm not sure why the discussion, as I posted before Nimble Motorsports will be releasing shortly it's compatible alternative to AMBrc PT's with it's DART system. We are already conviced it's a worthwhile investment of our time and money! 
What racers need to do is convince their tracks to install our decode box
when it is released.
You can assign whatever ID you want into the Raceiver, if it conflicts with another racer, then just change it. With 7-digits, you have 10 million possible numbers, more than enough for everyone
BTW, we developed a RFID system but found it was unreliable from the electrical noise caused by the motors and esc.
What racers need to do is convince their tracks to install our decode box
when it is released.
You can assign whatever ID you want into the Raceiver, if it conflicts with another racer, then just change it. With 7-digits, you have 10 million possible numbers, more than enough for everyone
BTW, we developed a RFID system but found it was unreliable from the electrical noise caused by the motors and esc.
07-15-2005, 02:31 AM
#54
Apologies Thor_jnb I missed off the question mark! I meant to ask... do most people who want PT's have them already? From the response on here so far it seems more people want them but don't want pay the price AMB are currently charging. Maybe as andsetinn says AMB will lower the price when they can meet the demand, if indeed that's the reason for the higher price now? As I said before, the rc market is relatively small and if it were viable and profitable I'm sure a cloned PT would have already been developed by now?
From my experience Jack, until people understand how it works (which I have to confess I don't, but it would be interesting to see your patent apps they should explain it all!) and can see it working you won't get much of a reaction. When it comes to lap counting people are fixed in their outlook and won't easily buy into anything new, you may have a hard time at least initially. We recently developed our Bug Booster for use with AMBrc PT's it cures all power related problems ie a weak speedo BEC etc so no more missed laps. A Bug Booster is like a 'mini PC UPS' connected to your PT power input it works very well, but unless people have a bad problem with missed laps that they're convinced a Bug Booster would fix they will struggle on without one.
If your Raceiver is a receiver and AMBrc compatible PT all in one unit, and if it were a similar price to an AMBrc PT people could buy a Raceiver instead of a PT correct? I'm sure all will become clear soon, what it all costs and what's needed to get it all working. As you say Jack RFID seems unlikely to be the solution, I guess it's now all down to you guys at Nimble!
Originally Posted by nimble
I'm not sure why the discussion, as I posted before Nimble Motorsports will be releasing shortly it's compatible alternative to AMBrc PT's with it's DART system. We are already conviced it's a worthwhile investment of our time and money!
If your Raceiver is a receiver and AMBrc compatible PT all in one unit, and if it were a similar price to an AMBrc PT people could buy a Raceiver instead of a PT correct? I'm sure all will become clear soon, what it all costs and what's needed to get it all working. As you say Jack RFID seems unlikely to be the solution, I guess it's now all down to you guys at Nimble!
07-15-2005, 02:42 AM
#55
Tech Addict
Originally Posted by nimble
I'm not sure why the discussion, as I posted before Nimble Motorsports will be releasing shortly it's compatible alternative to AMBrc PT's with it's DART system. We are already conviced it's a worthwhile investment of our time and money!
What racers need to do is convince their tracks to install our decode box
when it is released.
You can assign whatever ID you want into the Raceiver, if it conflicts with another racer, then just change it. With 7-digits, you have 10 million possible numbers, more than enough for everyone
BTW, we developed a RFID system but found it was unreliable from the electrical noise caused by the motors and esc.
What racers need to do is convince their tracks to install our decode box
when it is released.
You can assign whatever ID you want into the Raceiver, if it conflicts with another racer, then just change it. With 7-digits, you have 10 million possible numbers, more than enough for everyone
BTW, we developed a RFID system but found it was unreliable from the electrical noise caused by the motors and esc.
There have been lot of companies in the computer business that were full of bright ideas I've wanted to see succeed, but the only thing they ever made was buggy betas and vapourware.
Last edited by andsetinn; 07-15-2005 at 05:55 AM.
07-16-2005, 07:18 PM
#56
Tech Apprentice
I am Not beating up on Jack, & Nimble.
Jack,
I think we need more info about the DART system. I have looked around on your website and have questions...
1. Does the Raceiver work as a AMB transponder? from your above post... NO a Non AMB decoder box is needed. Is this correct???
2. Pricing... If converting to the Dart system, using the upgrade kit. A user would need Dart upgrade Kit 149.99 and a Raceiver 75.00 Plus a transmitter $$ "price unknown & not necesary for this example"
For a total of 224.99 Plus the time and effort to install the upgrade kit.
As an average club racer this is Not cost effective, A New Spectrum/JR 2.4 radio system is 249.99 with 2 servos.
Sell me Jack. Talk me into buying your system.
M2racing
Jack,
I think we need more info about the DART system. I have looked around on your website and have questions...
1. Does the Raceiver work as a AMB transponder? from your above post... NO a Non AMB decoder box is needed. Is this correct???
2. Pricing... If converting to the Dart system, using the upgrade kit. A user would need Dart upgrade Kit 149.99 and a Raceiver 75.00 Plus a transmitter $$ "price unknown & not necesary for this example"
For a total of 224.99 Plus the time and effort to install the upgrade kit.
As an average club racer this is Not cost effective, A New Spectrum/JR 2.4 radio system is 249.99 with 2 servos.
Sell me Jack. Talk me into buying your system.
M2racing
07-17-2005, 08:02 AM
#57
A DART Raceiver is not a AMBrc PT Clone. To use it in place of a AMB PT, the track must install the DART equipment to detect the Raceiver and send it to the computer. This decode box goes between the AMBdecoder box, and the computer, it passes through normal AMB output to the computer so normal AMB transponders continue to work, but also sends output for DART Raceivers so they appear to the computer to be AMB transponders. The race management software is unchanged and continues to work just as before. The decode box pricing is not determined yet, but it will not be expensive like a $4,000 AMB system.
The Spektrum JR radio is less expensive than DART, but it has much less functionality. A DART upgrade has 13 model memory vs 3.
It displays real-time telemetry data back from the Raceiver, and then it has the transponder functionality. It can download and display your laptimes. And the Raceiver is almost half the size and uses less power and doesn't need an external capacitor. And it's made in the USA, not in China.
The Spektrum JR radio is less expensive than DART, but it has much less functionality. A DART upgrade has 13 model memory vs 3.
It displays real-time telemetry data back from the Raceiver, and then it has the transponder functionality. It can download and display your laptimes. And the Raceiver is almost half the size and uses less power and doesn't need an external capacitor. And it's made in the USA, not in China.
07-17-2005, 11:01 AM
#58
Tech Addict
Actually the AMBrc decoding box with cabling is $2155 according to AMB website. Not 4000.
I want to know if the Raceiver work with Nomadio or Spektrum systems. Side by side or even better as mix and match. So that I can use Spektrum module in my Futaba radio and Raceiver in my car. Good luck Nimble. I want to see your products make it.
Am I the only one who thinks the Nomadio radio is so ugly that if I was paid to use it, I'd put a paperbag over the radio, or only race in the dark.
Terry. Can I ask for AMBrc clone that has some number that I could remember? Do I actually have to own a AMBrc transponder to get a clone? Can I have something cloned that I don't have? I'd like a transponder with the number 1234567. I "swear" I really have one with that number. 
If I remember correctly. Spektrum systems are supposed to have some kind of lap timing feature. Something that was supposed to be available some time after release. More like the Orion system than the AMB system.
I want to know if the Raceiver work with Nomadio or Spektrum systems. Side by side or even better as mix and match. So that I can use Spektrum module in my Futaba radio and Raceiver in my car. Good luck Nimble. I want to see your products make it.
Am I the only one who thinks the Nomadio radio is so ugly that if I was paid to use it, I'd put a paperbag over the radio, or only race in the dark.
Terry. Can I ask for AMBrc clone that has some number that I could remember? Do I actually have to own a AMBrc transponder to get a clone? Can I have something cloned that I don't have? I'd like a transponder with the number 1234567. I "swear" I really have one with that number.
If I remember correctly. Spektrum systems are supposed to have some kind of lap timing feature. Something that was supposed to be available some time after release. More like the Orion system than the AMB system.
07-17-2005, 12:46 PM
#59
Tech Elite
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MOOD;; feeling good not racing ,saving shed loads of money,lovely Tan i have aswell
Posts: 4,762
i`m just about to upgrade to a PT till i saw the price
so i thought i be clever & go to the usa & get one (exchange rate) that doesn`t work either
bleeedin expensive is all i can say
so i would like Terry from MRT to make a transponder that works with the old `black` colour one(analog) & the new red colour one(digital)
still goes from 1-10 but at a flick of a button/switch you can go from analog to digital
so i thought i be clever & go to the usa & get one (exchange rate) that doesn`t work either
bleeedin expensive is all i can say
so i would like Terry from MRT to make a transponder that works with the old `black` colour one(analog) & the new red colour one(digital)
still goes from 1-10 but at a flick of a button/switch you can go from analog to digital
07-19-2005, 02:26 PM
#60
Originally Posted by andsetinn
Terry. Can I ask for AMBrc clone that has some number that I could remember? Do I actually have to own a AMBrc transponder to get a clone? Can I have something cloned that I don't have? I'd like a transponder with the number 1234567. I "swear" I really have one with that number.
Originally Posted by MR JOLLY
i`m just about to upgrade to a PT till i saw the price
so i thought i be clever & go to the usa & get one (exchange rate) that doesn`t work either
bleeedin expensive is all i can say
so i would like Terry from MRT to make a transponder that works with the old `black` colour one(analog) & the new red colour one(digital)
still goes from 1-10 but at a flick of a button/switch you can go from analog to digital
so i thought i be clever & go to the usa & get one (exchange rate) that doesn`t work either
bleeedin expensive is all i can say
so i would like Terry from MRT to make a transponder that works with the old `black` colour one(analog) & the new red colour one(digital)
still goes from 1-10 but at a flick of a button/switch you can go from analog to digital
