R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-30-2015, 06:23 PM   #2401
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Arizona
Posts: 740
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottrik View Post
Getting my TC6.2 together as my new VTA ride, a couple questions came up...

Question1: the eccentric cams that adjust belt tension and diff height...MY 6.2 manual lists the part numbers for the old TC5 pieces, the inner and outer sold separately. I'm pretty sure my 6.1 calls out the same pieces. NOW the 6.2 manual I just referenced lists a different part number for the cams AND both the inner and outer pieces are sold all together under one part number. Is there actually a difference with these cams on the 6.2 or are they just packaging the old parts together the way they always should have been?

Question 2: what is the deal with the .5mm shims spacing all the suspension mounts up from the chassis plate. What are these actually doing (other than making service a PITA)?

Question 3: a bit more "general" than the other questions, but what is the effect of raising and lowering the differential relative to the chassis? Trying to get the axles as straight as possible at your "selected" droop setting and ride height, or is there more to this? Differential height is not addressed in any of my setup guides (but then again neither was arm sweep...).

Thanks!!
1. I just put new diff cams in my 6.2 and they are definitely smaller than the 6.1 cams. The reason I know this is I mistakenly tried to use the 6.1 cams and they won't fit because they are taller..

2. I kind of agree with you. All it is doing is lowering the chassis plate by .5mm and thus lowering the center of gravity some. But what it does do is let you do some tuning by using no shims on the front or rear mounts and use shims on the other mount and thus tilting the suspension mounts front to rear or rear to front. I seem to remember Randy Caster like to tilt his front suspension up to aid in turn in.

3. Again, I had the same problem, been trying to figure out what this does other than put an angle on the half shafts. And you are right, there are no notes in the manual. Seems like most people run them completely low, some do mid low, very few are mid high or high. I don't have an answer of what it does, hoping someone else who is smarter than I am can answer this one.
glennhl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2015, 06:46 PM   #2402
Tech Champion
 
Scottrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Billings, MT
Posts: 6,196
Trader Rating: 243 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Cochran View Post
#1 If I remember correctly the new number has more adjustment range than the older cams.

#2 It changes the hinge pin height which affects the roll centers. basically its part of the set up. We have optional CF ones that are one piece and slotted to slide under the arm mount. Less PITA.

#3 Raising and lowering the diff affects the car under braking and acceleration. You already mentioned getting the bones lining up with the out-drives. When they don't line up it makes the cars attitude change on power and off. For instance we used to run the front diff higher than the rear as it tended to help the car steer a little better out of the corner under power. Now we mostly just run med low front and rear.
Many thanks Sean! Hadn't looked for the 1-piece shims, see 'em now and have some on the way! Also noticed they come in two thicknesses, looks like .5-ish mm and 1-ish mm? Add together for 1.5-ish mm if needed...

Scottrik
__________________
Congressmen should wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers so we can identify their corporate sponsors.

THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED -Gil Scott-Heron (1949-2011)
Scottrik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2015, 07:00 PM   #2403
Tech Champion
 
Scottrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Billings, MT
Posts: 6,196
Trader Rating: 243 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennhl View Post
1. I just put new diff cams in my 6.2 and they are definitely smaller than the 6.1 cams. The reason I know this is I mistakenly tried to use the 6.1 cams and they won't fit because they are taller..

2. I kind of agree with you. All it is doing is lowering the chassis plate by .5mm and thus lowering the center of gravity some. But what it does do is let you do some tuning by using no shims on the front or rear mounts and use shims on the other mount and thus tilting the suspension mounts front to rear or rear to front. I seem to remember Randy Caster like to tilt his front suspension up to aid in turn in.

3. Again, I had the same problem, been trying to figure out what this does other than put an angle on the half shafts. And you are right, there are no notes in the manual. Seems like most people run them completely low, some do mid low, very few are mid high or high. I don't have an answer of what it does, hoping someone else who is smarter than I am can answer this one.
Thanks Glenn, clears up question 1 entirely!

Hopefully you saw Sean's answers. The only one he wasn't absolutely sure on was the cams. The shims look to be the POO, they're Associated part numbers 31629 and 31630. They would be your adjustments for "kick-up" or anti-dive and the front and pro- or anti-squat at the rear. The diff height thing looks pretty much "set it and forget it" once you've established your droop and ride height you can optimize shaft run to as level as possible or try tuning for drive off of turns. Or, as Sean indicated, just take the average of everybody's experience and adjust everything else around that.

Scott
__________________
Congressmen should wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers so we can identify their corporate sponsors.

THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED -Gil Scott-Heron (1949-2011)
Scottrik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2015, 10:34 AM   #2404
Tech Master
 
YoDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Lompoc, Ca.
Posts: 1,652
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottrik View Post
Thanks Glenn, clears up question 1 entirely!

Hopefully you saw Sean's answers. The only one he wasn't absolutely sure on was the cams. The shims look to be the POO, they're Associated part numbers 31629 and 31630. They would be your adjustments for "kick-up" or anti-dive and the front and pro- or anti-squat at the rear. The diff height thing looks pretty much "set it and forget it" once you've established your droop and ride height you can optimize shaft run to as level as possible or try tuning for drive off of turns. Or, as Sean indicated, just take the average of everybody's experience and adjust everything else around that.

Scott
As Sean pointed out, the shims are for gross roll center adjustment, anti-dive and anti-squat. The stock setting with 0.5mm all around is a fairly low roll center which will produce decent roll and grip in most conditions. Small roll center adjustments are done through the upper link heights. Although AE designed in a way to change spool height, they apparently didn't consider it an overly effective tuning option to go into detail about it's use. Most use the kit default setting and work around it. The same appears to be the case for arm sweep as it is adjustable via the kits hardware but not as featured function so it's not mentioned in the manual. Now many manufacturers are including arm sweep in their setup descriptions. This might be due to driver's input into writing the manual.
__________________
R-Factor RC Products
AE- TC6.1WC, TC6.2, RSD6, B5M
CRC- GenX10 WGT & Pro10 Prototype, WTF1, Xti 1/12
R-Factor RC- TC4-R, P8 PanCar
Not as Fast as I want to be but too old to Whine about it... 8-)
YoDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 08:57 AM   #2405
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Arizona
Posts: 740
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtcc View Post
I am not sure myself, as I didn't measure the changes. I just copied what Randy and Rick revealed in pictures on redrc.
I guess the geometry changed (maybe not the rollcenter in first place) and gets closer to what Yokomo has.
My own experience before was that you can make the car very fast with stock parts, but it was never as smooth and consistent to drive. So after the change it is much better on the long run. Just more predictable, consistent and forgiving. And for us good but normal guys this can easily bring 1-2 seconds on a five minute run.
I'm thinking of doing this mod to one of my TC6.2's. I have a few questions. First, how does the TC4/5 arm mod compare to the first mod you did by using the TC6.2 front arm in the rear? Comparing the two arms, that mod made the rear track a little narrower. Is that what the TC5/4 arms do, make the car narrower? Or is the key to make the front and rear arms the same length? How would you compare the two mods, is the TC5/4 mod a lot better than using the front arms in the rear? Reason I ask is I have some spare front arms and it would be an easy mod to perform. If I do this mod, I do have a question, do you have to remove the cross bar on the end of the front arm to make it work on the rear? Did you drill a new hole for the rear shocks in the arm?

Last question for anyone>>> Will the TC7 front and rear arms work on a TC6.2 and would this be a good mod?

Thanks,
Glenn
glennhl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 11:31 AM   #2406
The Evicerator
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Irvine, CA
Posts: 4,142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennhl View Post
...
Last question for anyone>>> Will the TC7 front and rear arms work on a TC6.2 and would this be a good mod?

Thanks,
Glenn
Hi Glenn,

Can't speak to the front arm on the rear mod as it's something I've never done... I don't know that I would do it either being as that the shock position on the arm is very different than what is normally run on a rear arm, and that the front arm is much shorter in length than the rear arms most people run now.

That being said, when the TC7 parts become available, there isn't any reason why you can't try to use them on your TC6.2 except for the fact that the chord of the arm is smaller on the TC7 parts than the TC6.2 stock arms... you'll run into a situation where you'll have to add extra spacers on the hinge pins to set the wheelbase of the car very similar to what we've been doing with the TC4 rear arm.

Another detail I just thought of that will be something you need to address is that if you use all the new TC7 suspension parts, steering hubs, rear hubs, castor blocks, etc, the steering rack height on the Tc6.2 chassis will yield a strange bump steer angle on the steering links because the TC7 parts are now symmetrical from side to side as opposed to offset like the 6.2 plastics.

There may be other minor issues that you encounter, but being as that I haven't affixed TC7 suspension to a TC6.2 chassis, I can't say for sure.
__________________
Steve Weiss
TEAM ASSOCIATED -- REEDY -- SANWA -- PROTOFORM -- P1 BRAND -- TUNING HAUS -- TEAM KINWALD -- TEAM STEVE INTERNATIONAL

Last edited by Steve Weiss; 01-07-2016 at 11:37 AM. Reason: additional information added.
Steve Weiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 12:40 PM   #2407
rMa
Tech Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 13
Default

I'm using TC5 rear arms and hubs with 5x10x3mm bearings in my TC6.2, a direct fit with original crush tubes, drive shafts and hinge pins.

The arms have the same chord as in the original TC6.2 rear arms, no additonal shims needed. Hinge pin spacing is the same as in the front arms. I have not measured track width before/after but it seems to be quite close to the original.
rMa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 01:02 PM   #2408
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Arizona
Posts: 740
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Weiss View Post
Hi Glenn,

Can't speak to the front arm on the rear mod as it's something I've never done... I don't know that I would do it either being as that the shock position on the arm is very different than what is normally run on a rear arm, and that the front arm is much shorter in length than the rear arms most people run now.

That being said, when the TC7 parts become available, there isn't any reason why you can't try to use them on your TC6.2 except for the fact that the chord of the arm is smaller on the TC7 parts than the TC6.2 stock arms... you'll run into a situation where you'll have to add extra spacers on the hinge pins to set the wheelbase of the car very similar to what we've been doing with the TC4 rear arm.

Another detail I just thought of that will be something you need to address is that if you use all the new TC7 suspension parts, steering hubs, rear hubs, castor blocks, etc, the steering rack height on the Tc6.2 chassis will yield a strange bump steer angle on the steering links because the TC7 parts are now symmetrical from side to side as opposed to offset like the 6.2 plastics.

There may be other minor issues that you encounter, but being as that I haven't affixed TC7 suspension to a TC6.2 chassis, I can't say for sure.
Steve, thanks so much for the info. I think you answered the question by saying that the TC4/5 mod makes the rear of the car wider, not narrower, telling me that the using the front arm for the rear is NOT a good mod. And using the TC7 parts is not a slam dunk either because of the steering geometry changes. Well, I guess I'll bite the bullet and try the TC4/5 mod. I'm pretty sure I know what to get. But please confirm this....

TC4 Graphite Rear Arms: ASC31009
TC5 Front Arms: ASC31208
TC5 C 4 degree Hard Caster Block: ASC31557 (can I also use ASC31212, it's the same except it doesn't say "hard")
Yokomo BD7 Rear Hubs: YOKBD-415R
Lot of 3 x 6 washers: Yeah Racing YA-0390LB

I also read that I need the following, but I can't find them...
TC5 Inner Sway Bar mounts 1 dot x 4
Yokomo DB7 Rear Sway Bar
glennhl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 06:53 PM   #2409
Tech Master
 
YoDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Lompoc, Ca.
Posts: 1,652
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

I think our German friend was using front arms for his ARS conversion not as a version of the geometry adjustment. I could be wrong though.
__________________
R-Factor RC Products
AE- TC6.1WC, TC6.2, RSD6, B5M
CRC- GenX10 WGT & Pro10 Prototype, WTF1, Xti 1/12
R-Factor RC- TC4-R, P8 PanCar
Not as Fast as I want to be but too old to Whine about it... 8-)
YoDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2016, 03:13 PM   #2410
The Evicerator
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Irvine, CA
Posts: 4,142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennhl View Post
Steve, thanks so much for the info. I think you answered the question by saying that the TC4/5 mod makes the rear of the car wider, not narrower, telling me that the using the front arm for the rear is NOT a good mod. And using the TC7 parts is not a slam dunk either because of the steering geometry changes. Well, I guess I'll bite the bullet and try the TC4/5 mod. I'm pretty sure I know what to get. But please confirm this....

TC4 Graphite Rear Arms: ASC31009
TC5 Front Arms: ASC31208
TC5 C 4 degree Hard Caster Block: ASC31557 (can I also use ASC31212, it's the same except it doesn't say "hard")
Yokomo BD7 Rear Hubs: YOKBD-415R
Lot of 3 x 6 washers: Yeah Racing YA-0390LB

I also read that I need the following, but I can't find them...
TC5 Inner Sway Bar mounts 1 dot x 4
Yokomo DB7 Rear Sway Bar
Well, the TC4 arms ARE shorter than the 6.2 arms, but it's not necessarily to widen or narrow the overall track of the car, the mere change in arm length, even while leaving the overall car track width the same, changes the handling characteristics of the car.

I would recommend using the "hard" 4 degree castor blocks, they just tend to handle "better."

Regarding the rear hubs, you can use either the yokomo or the stock 6.2 hubs, but if you use the 6.2 hubs, you'll need to shave the back of the hub down a bit to clear the arm. Aside from this, both hubs are very similar, the camberlink pickup point is a difference between the two.

The BD7 sway bars should be relatively easy to find, they come as a kit though...so maybe that's why you were thrown off:

http://www.tqrcracing.com/shop/produ...asp?p_id=10090

The roll bar mounts you're looking for are AE # 31264:

https://www.teamassociated.com/parts...ll_bar_mounts/

Hope all this helps!
__________________
Steve Weiss
TEAM ASSOCIATED -- REEDY -- SANWA -- PROTOFORM -- P1 BRAND -- TUNING HAUS -- TEAM KINWALD -- TEAM STEVE INTERNATIONAL
Steve Weiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2016, 03:17 PM   #2411
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,456
Send a message via ICQ to MattW
Default

TC4 rear arm is shorter than the 6.2 rear arm (generally run with max width on the inner mount). TC5 front arm is longer than 6.2 front arm.

You can use either TC5 caster block, but the "std" one is a touch soft. The hard one is nice.

You would need something like 8-9mm of spacers if running the TC7 wishbones. You can use the 6.2 steering block in the TC7 caster block and then you don't have any worries about steering link angle.
MattW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2016, 05:18 PM   #2412
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Arizona
Posts: 740
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Weiss View Post
Well, the TC4 arms ARE shorter than the 6.2 arms, but it's not necessarily to widen or narrow the overall track of the car, the mere change in arm length, even while leaving the overall car track width the same, changes the handling characteristics of the car.

I would recommend using the "hard" 4 degree castor blocks, they just tend to handle "better."

Regarding the rear hubs, you can use either the yokomo or the stock 6.2 hubs, but if you use the 6.2 hubs, you'll need to shave the back of the hub down a bit to clear the arm. Aside from this, both hubs are very similar, the camberlink pickup point is a difference between the two.

The BD7 sway bars should be relatively easy to find, they come as a kit though...so maybe that's why you were thrown off:

http://www.tqrcracing.com/shop/produ...asp?p_id=10090

The roll bar mounts you're looking for are AE # 31264:

https://www.teamassociated.com/parts...ll_bar_mounts/

Hope all this helps!
Helps a ton. I went ahead and ordered everything last night except the Anti-Sway bars. How much better are the BD7 sway bars? Can I stick with the 6.2 bars, I kind of like the aluminum center section.

Also, I ordered the BD7 rear hubs, not sure if this was a waste of money if I could have used the 6.2 ones. Well, live and learn. This forum is the BEST, thank you for your help. It's nice that we can update our 6.2's to be the same as the prototypes and therefore a little closer to a TC7.
glennhl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2016, 05:35 PM   #2413
Tech Master
 
YoDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Lompoc, Ca.
Posts: 1,652
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

I think I'd rather wait for the TC7 plastic to be in stock then make the changes with the stock parts rather than Franken cludge with a bunch of misc parts from other cars.
If AE continues in the same MO as in the past, the new parts should fit the TC6.2 with little modification. then you will have the geometry updates that these other parts achieve but with the intended design.

Maybe just me...
__________________
R-Factor RC Products
AE- TC6.1WC, TC6.2, RSD6, B5M
CRC- GenX10 WGT & Pro10 Prototype, WTF1, Xti 1/12
R-Factor RC- TC4-R, P8 PanCar
Not as Fast as I want to be but too old to Whine about it... 8-)
YoDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2016, 06:02 PM   #2414
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Arizona
Posts: 740
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YoDog View Post
I think I'd rather wait for the TC7 plastic to be in stock then make the changes with the stock parts rather than Franken cludge with a bunch of misc parts from other cars.
If AE continues in the same MO as in the past, the new parts should fit the TC6.2 with little modification. then you will have the geometry updates that these other parts achieve but with the intended design.

Maybe just me...
Was my first thought, but Steve mentioned the steering geometry might be messed up and I decided to go the Prototype route. He also said the TC7 parts will still need a bunch of shims like with the TC4 rear arm. But you are right, you do get the tougher plastic with the TC7 parts. But heck, I never wreck, so I'm fine.
glennhl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2016, 12:40 PM   #2415
jpx
Tech Adept
 
jpx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 177
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattW View Post
... TC5 front arm is longer than 6.2 front arm. ...
I heard so allready but for myself I never understood:
if I insert the inner and outer pins in both TC5 and TC6.2 front arm they seam to have absolutely the same distance ... ?
__________________
AE TC7 / 17.5T blinky GT
WRC f-one '016 / 21.5T F1
jpx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 08:30 AM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net