2014 IFMAR Worlds Full Throttle Raceway at Kissimmee Florida
05-28-2013, 11:03 AM
#61
Since when is 12th scale dying? Being dead on asphalt in the US != dying. The class is thriving on the rug.
I am not that close-minded in respect to the surface on which 12th scale is run. Do I prefer to race pan-cars on carpet? Absolutely? Modern pan-cars have been designed to be raced on carpet. Can they be run on asphalt? Absolutely. Is it an ideal setting for them? No. Is it a setting in which the world championship should be decided? IMO, no. But those are simply my opinions.
I would like to clarify something. My real disappointment does not directly stem from the decision to run the 12th scale portion on asphalt... If the choice was to run both classes on asphalt or pass the race to a different bloc/country, I would firmly stand behind the choice to race 12th on the pavement. However, when presented with 2 options for hosting this race(one of which would have pleased both parties/classes), I find it very disappointing that someone(ROAR, IFMAR, I don't know?) chose the option which effectively alienated one of the classes to the benefit of the other.
That is what I find perturbing.
I am not that close-minded in respect to the surface on which 12th scale is run. Do I prefer to race pan-cars on carpet? Absolutely? Modern pan-cars have been designed to be raced on carpet. Can they be run on asphalt? Absolutely. Is it an ideal setting for them? No. Is it a setting in which the world championship should be decided? IMO, no. But those are simply my opinions.
I would like to clarify something. My real disappointment does not directly stem from the decision to run the 12th scale portion on asphalt... If the choice was to run both classes on asphalt or pass the race to a different bloc/country, I would firmly stand behind the choice to race 12th on the pavement. However, when presented with 2 options for hosting this race(one of which would have pleased both parties/classes), I find it very disappointing that someone(ROAR, IFMAR, I don't know?) chose the option which effectively alienated one of the classes to the benefit of the other.
That is what I find perturbing.
Yes I understand as well. I was unable to attend either the carpet Nats as well as the paved Nats due to them being so close together and the bigger aspect of my child being born pretty much right in the middle. I was hoping myself Paved Nats would have been in August again. So I am right now a by standard looking in. I am sitting here crossing my fingers I can attend. As well as I'm sure a bunch more.
05-28-2013, 02:33 PM
#62
Tech Adept
Meanwhile we are asking.....
Over on RC Racechat where the UK guys hang out with some of the other Europeans, we are asking:
In the IFMAR Electric track rules we used in 2010, this was the wording
2.0.3 The track surface for the ISTC class can be either asphalt or needle carpet.
2.0.4 The track surface for 1/12th Class is recommended to be indoors on needle carpet.
In case of outdoors on asphalt track, control tyre is compulsory.
The rules that are in place now
1.0.3 The track surface for the ISTC class can be either asphalt or needle carpet.
1.0.4 The track surface for 1/12th Class is recommended to be indoors on standardised needle carpet.
XXXXXX
The control tyre rule was introduced after the 2008 fiasco. What we are asking is how and when this rule got changed? As I said in my opening post, I would consider running on tarmac with a control tyre.
My preference remains carpet. I am sure it would be possible to poll last year's entry at the 12th WC in Holland and ask them their preference. If the answer does not come up 80% in favour of Carpet then I will get my coat, save up for some control tyres (I hope) and get on a plane.
Mark
In the IFMAR Electric track rules we used in 2010, this was the wording
2.0.3 The track surface for the ISTC class can be either asphalt or needle carpet.
2.0.4 The track surface for 1/12th Class is recommended to be indoors on needle carpet.
In case of outdoors on asphalt track, control tyre is compulsory.
The rules that are in place now
1.0.3 The track surface for the ISTC class can be either asphalt or needle carpet.
1.0.4 The track surface for 1/12th Class is recommended to be indoors on standardised needle carpet.
XXXXXX
The control tyre rule was introduced after the 2008 fiasco. What we are asking is how and when this rule got changed? As I said in my opening post, I would consider running on tarmac with a control tyre.
My preference remains carpet. I am sure it would be possible to poll last year's entry at the 12th WC in Holland and ask them their preference. If the answer does not come up 80% in favour of Carpet then I will get my coat, save up for some control tyres (I hope) and get on a plane.
Mark
05-28-2013, 02:45 PM
#63
The ROAR EXCOMM makes the decision where the race will be held.
The people that voted on the race were The President ( Steve Mruk ), The Secretary ( Steve Pond ), Ron Schuur and David Larry .
Denise could not attend. Ed gave Steve Mruk his Proxy vote.
BTW, the vote is complete and the results are known, so lets try to support what we have been dealt. I am anxious to race in the worlds again...
( still bitter on how this all went down, but support George and his crew fully )
We all need to thank Dallas for helping to get the race back to the US.
I would like to clarify something. My real disappointment does not directly stem from the decision to run the 12th scale portion on asphalt... If the choice was to run both classes on asphalt or pass the race to a different bloc/country, I would firmly stand behind the choice to race 12th on the pavement. However, when presented with 2 options for hosting this race(one of which would have pleased both parties/classes), I find it very disappointing that someone(ROAR, IFMAR, I don't know?) chose the option which effectively alienated one of the classes to the benefit of the other.
That is what I find perturbing.
The people that voted on the race were The President ( Steve Mruk ), The Secretary ( Steve Pond ), Ron Schuur and David Larry .
Denise could not attend. Ed gave Steve Mruk his Proxy vote.
BTW, the vote is complete and the results are known, so lets try to support what we have been dealt. I am anxious to race in the worlds again...
( still bitter on how this all went down, but support George and his crew fully )
We all need to thank Dallas for helping to get the race back to the US.
I would like to clarify something. My real disappointment does not directly stem from the decision to run the 12th scale portion on asphalt... If the choice was to run both classes on asphalt or pass the race to a different bloc/country, I would firmly stand behind the choice to race 12th on the pavement. However, when presented with 2 options for hosting this race(one of which would have pleased both parties/classes), I find it very disappointing that someone(ROAR, IFMAR, I don't know?) chose the option which effectively alienated one of the classes to the benefit of the other.
That is what I find perturbing.
05-28-2013, 04:31 PM
#64
My preference remains carpet. I am sure it would be possible to poll last year's entry at the 12th WC in Holland and ask them their preference. If the answer does not come up 80% in favour of Carpet then I will get my coat, save up for some control tyres (I hope) and get on a plane.
Mark
05-28-2013, 04:46 PM
#65
I think the point was not so much on asphalt but the tires! And how it was very secretive as to what was the tire to be on and they weren't available to all so it becomes the unfair advantage.
It's very simple why can't there be a control tire and additive like touring cars? It comes down to driver and car then.
At our 12 th nationals now we have a control additive.
I think some trust should be given to drivers and teams as let's be honest if u are found cheating u shame urself and u may aswell stop racing u will always be branded as the worlds cheater!
Obviously it would be just donuts as sponsor wheels can still be used and alikes of Yok with there own offset!
Then at tire marking scruiteenering have them durometered for shore or have for instance a company (Jaco) do a special worlds tire so it has a colour stripe in! It is still in the interest at there extra cost.
The additive if people feel they cannot be trusted have additive given out in clear containers with a slight colouring
It's very simple why can't there be a control tire and additive like touring cars? It comes down to driver and car then.
At our 12 th nationals now we have a control additive.
I think some trust should be given to drivers and teams as let's be honest if u are found cheating u shame urself and u may aswell stop racing u will always be branded as the worlds cheater!
Obviously it would be just donuts as sponsor wheels can still be used and alikes of Yok with there own offset!
Then at tire marking scruiteenering have them durometered for shore or have for instance a company (Jaco) do a special worlds tire so it has a colour stripe in! It is still in the interest at there extra cost.
The additive if people feel they cannot be trusted have additive given out in clear containers with a slight colouring
I believe there was a ruling since that eliminated the unfair advantage of exotic rubber compounds when running on asphalt, Controlled tire was answer
05-28-2013, 05:48 PM
#67
There are several "new" Japan compounds being tested by nearly all the manufactures. I know at both Carpet and Asphalt Nats they were available from BSR, Gravity, and other brands. Most were in testing mode and being used in Mod but I suspect after a short time the manufactures will start having them listed along with their other compounds.
05-28-2013, 06:07 PM
#68
The ROAR EXCOMM makes the decision where the race will be held.
The people that voted on the race were The President ( Steve Mruk ), The Secretary ( Steve Pond ), Ron Schuur and David Larry .
Denise could not attend. Ed gave Steve Mruk his Proxy vote.
BTW, the vote is complete and the results are known, so lets try to support what we have been dealt. I am anxious to race in the worlds again...
( still bitter on how this all went down, but support George and his crew fully )
We all need to thank Dallas for helping to get the race back to the US.
The people that voted on the race were The President ( Steve Mruk ), The Secretary ( Steve Pond ), Ron Schuur and David Larry .
Denise could not attend. Ed gave Steve Mruk his Proxy vote.
BTW, the vote is complete and the results are known, so lets try to support what we have been dealt. I am anxious to race in the worlds again...
( still bitter on how this all went down, but support George and his crew fully )
We all need to thank Dallas for helping to get the race back to the US.
05-28-2013, 08:14 PM
#69
As someone who runs 12th on Asphalt a fair bit the concept of a control tyre frightens me. Because you are outdoors especially changes in the weather can take you outside the tunable range of a given set of tyres, meaning you could have a situation where driving would not be fun.
A control family of tyres (so a range of shore ratings front and rear) to choose from on the other hand for a large event like this would be good, especially if they'll all be on hand to purchase at the meeting.
A control family of tyres (so a range of shore ratings front and rear) to choose from on the other hand for a large event like this would be good, especially if they'll all be on hand to purchase at the meeting.
05-28-2013, 08:34 PM
#70
05-29-2013, 06:58 AM
#71
Tech Master
Ulti tires are imported and sold in North America by KO PROPO America.
The compound I believe they are referring to is the rear Z compound which is a 25 shore rated rubber. The rubber has sparkle in it and a different feel to it unlike any other out there on the market. It is an expensive rubber though.
The compound I believe they are referring to is the rear Z compound which is a 25 shore rated rubber. The rubber has sparkle in it and a different feel to it unlike any other out there on the market. It is an expensive rubber though.
05-29-2013, 08:31 AM
#72
As long as there is an open tire rule, there are going to be manufacturers that are going to try and create a better product. Just because everyone has access to what they believe is the best tire doesn't mean that a team will show up in 2014 with some new advancement that nobody else has access to.
I highly doubt that Yokomo is going accept that they no longer have a tire advantage.
Anyway, Yokomo/Masami has always been at the forefront of foam tire technology. Even back at the '88 Worlds in Baarn, Holland Masami had "special" tires that nobody else had.
A spec tire would be pretty much impossible to control when you have so many wheel sizes and offsets. I think we have to accept that open foam tire are part of the game and there is a chance that someone may have something better than you but that you also may have something better than everyone else.
And it doesn't matter if it is asphalt or carpet, a better tire is a better tire.
FYI, I was using Parma Pinks at the Worlds and they worked pretty well! I also used pinks at the ROAR Carpet Nats because I preferred them over the Ultis.
I highly doubt that Yokomo is going accept that they no longer have a tire advantage.
Anyway, Yokomo/Masami has always been at the forefront of foam tire technology. Even back at the '88 Worlds in Baarn, Holland Masami had "special" tires that nobody else had.
A spec tire would be pretty much impossible to control when you have so many wheel sizes and offsets. I think we have to accept that open foam tire are part of the game and there is a chance that someone may have something better than you but that you also may have something better than everyone else.
And it doesn't matter if it is asphalt or carpet, a better tire is a better tire.
FYI, I was using Parma Pinks at the Worlds and they worked pretty well! I also used pinks at the ROAR Carpet Nats because I preferred them over the Ultis.
05-29-2013, 08:35 AM
#73
As long as there is an open tire rule, there are going to be manufacturers that are going to try and create a better product. Just because everyone has access to what they believe is the best tire doesn't mean that a team will show up in 2014 with some new advancement that nobody else has access to.
I highly doubt that Yokomo is going accept that they no longer have a tire advantage.
Anyway, Yokomo/Masami has always been at the forefront of foam tire technology. Even back at the '88 Worlds in Baarn, Holland Masami had "special" tires that nobody else had.
A spec tire would be pretty much impossible to control when you have so many wheel sizes and offsets. I think we have to accept that open foam tire are part of the game and there is a chance that someone may have something better than you but that you also may have something better than everyone else.
And it doesn't matter if it is asphalt or carpet, a better tire is a better tire.
FYI, I was using Parma Pinks at the Worlds and they worked pretty well! I also used pinks at the ROAR Carpet Nats because I preferred them over the Ultis.
I highly doubt that Yokomo is going accept that they no longer have a tire advantage.
Anyway, Yokomo/Masami has always been at the forefront of foam tire technology. Even back at the '88 Worlds in Baarn, Holland Masami had "special" tires that nobody else had.
A spec tire would be pretty much impossible to control when you have so many wheel sizes and offsets. I think we have to accept that open foam tire are part of the game and there is a chance that someone may have something better than you but that you also may have something better than everyone else.
And it doesn't matter if it is asphalt or carpet, a better tire is a better tire.
FYI, I was using Parma Pinks at the Worlds and they worked pretty well! I also used pinks at the ROAR Carpet Nats because I preferred them over the Ultis.
05-29-2013, 09:29 AM
#74
Wow. 1/12th scale has been the hot topic on this thread. I'm glad everyone is really motivated. Maybe we will see and increase in participation. When IFMAR races take place US drivers never go. It is always 6-8 drivers that go because going to an event cost several thousand dollars to race. The entry alone is like 400 dollars. Not to mention the flight, hotel, rental car and food. This does not include batteries tires and equipment.
If your a serous racer attending a world event your going to participate. I go to participate. Other than Rick Howart there are very few people that have the skill to race at that level. In Milan Italy the IFMAR WC Sedan ran on asphalt and 1/12th on carpet. The carpet was dirty with red clay and saw dust and dirt. The cars came off filthy. No one remembers that carpet race.
I will buy a 1/12th and race cause its local in the US and not cause I'm at that level. Lets be real and enjoy the WC here locally and watch the best do what they do...
If your a serous racer attending a world event your going to participate. I go to participate. Other than Rick Howart there are very few people that have the skill to race at that level. In Milan Italy the IFMAR WC Sedan ran on asphalt and 1/12th on carpet. The carpet was dirty with red clay and saw dust and dirt. The cars came off filthy. No one remembers that carpet race.
I will buy a 1/12th and race cause its local in the US and not cause I'm at that level. Lets be real and enjoy the WC here locally and watch the best do what they do...
05-29-2013, 09:38 AM
#75
Funny thing is, the guys talking about special tires and carpet versus asphalt for the most part, it won't make any difference. There are a small handfull of guys (US based, Not familar enough to speak Globally) who are fast and CONSISTENT enough to take advantage or be at a true disadvantage over tires, and so far I've not seen one of them post. I finished well at Carpet and Asphalt Nats in 12th Mod, If I was the only one there with super secret tires it might mean the difference in the C to B, but as long as I still beat Hanulec and Knapp it will all be Fun 
After all were still talking toy cars.
After all were still talking toy cars.