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Old 04-08-2005, 05:57 PM   #166
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You know? Pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins...
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Old 04-08-2005, 05:59 PM   #167
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Originally posted by gee-dub
from a previous post "when losi was bought out did things go bad? for consumers, no... for rival distributors, yes...". tell that to the consumers of small shops that did/do not meet horizons policy for ordering.(?).
thats a different argument in its-self, those buisness are under capitalized.

speaking of capital, now maybe ae will develop an offroad 4wd...
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Old 04-08-2005, 06:16 PM   #168
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Snaponjunky-Hate to break it to you but AE is about as american as Chop Sticks.Thunder Tiger built the MGT,the RC18T and builds ALL their RTR's or assembled trucks.
Designed BY AE yes.But hardly built by them.

Guys this is simply a buyout.Nothing more.
I wouldnt expect changes on a level WE WILL see at all.Just a company that saw a good cash cow and had even MORE capital to make it bigger.Same designers,same quality and so on.I seriously doubt with AE's background Thunder Tiger would take the chance of screwing things up to LOOSE money on such an investment.
I will say you guys CRACK ME UP.This is like a woman's soapopera.You guys CRAVE for something to talk about,RUMOR of the week and so on.Quite funny actually.

Please----- If you dont have a clue of the industry SHUT UP.All you do is start rumors or actually HURT companies with the unneeded GIBBERISH you speak.Opinions are just that OPINIONS.But if it's not backed with some knowledge then please do us ALL a Favor and Keep your OPINION to yourself.
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Old 04-08-2005, 06:28 PM   #169
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Originally posted by protc3
i wish that you guys could see what shops in the US are up against when it comes to manufacturing against asian countries.i am in the business and have had to quote on parts that were also out for quote in china.the price they came in with was cheaper than i can buy the material for.there are talented machinists and moldmakers all over the world.what dictates quality is profit.if a US company is to make a mold for lets say,tranny housings for AE.they are bidding against other countries and businesses that literally cost nothing to run.goverment supplies them with everything.workers live in the upstairs of the factory and can live off of 25cents an hour.do you realize the average salary of a mold maker or tool and die maker is about $1.50 an hour in china.this is a very skilled person.these people are just as skilled as the people here making 60-70 g a year.the US cannot compete.unfortunately we have companies in the US that take advantage of this.they farm out all of there work over seas and destroy manufacturing in the US.other countries are not to blame,the greed of our own companies seem to be at the root of the problem.
The part at the end is really not the truth either. Companies are greedy yes, but they are not the only reason the cost is so high. The workers are also to blame, they want higher salaries, less hours, MORE PAY to help keep up with inflation. The US is in a revolving circle of inflation. Comapnies and workers are steadily causeing the other to raise costs to support the other. To give everyone a raise, the company must make more money, to do this it is easier to raise prices. Now the workers gets paid more but when he goes to buy something, it costs more. It all can not be blamed on the companies greed.

Keep in mind, this is just my opinion on this.
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Old 04-08-2005, 07:25 PM   #170
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If all of us are so wanting American products, you can find clothing and just about everything made in the USA. But you'll pay more for it. We want every thing and cheap. So there aren't many ways to get that. Since we all want to make the most money we can it doesn't work. The majority of things in RC are made overseas. Is there pride in the companies that are made here? Yes, of course, but in the scheme of things if we really cared about where something was made we'd hold true to that across the board. McDonalds uses beef from South America, GM uses parts from overseas, my shoes were made by a 5 year old, and my computer was made somewhere else. I don't see how you guys think something will change. Did you know who owned AE before? Did that seem to make a difference?

I want the best for the cheapest. Whoever makes that combination wins.
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Old 04-08-2005, 07:59 PM   #171
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i decided to delete.
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Old 04-08-2005, 08:35 PM   #172
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Originally posted by koabich
Asian companies (Honda, Toyota...and countless others) are all funded by their government. The government pays for their quality control, the governemtn pay's for their R&D, if Honda looses money when they sell a car, guess what, the Japaneese government makes up for the difference...the government pay's for this and that
If you don't get your facts straight and make comments like this it will not help your argument. Don't just believe what people tell you, do your own research. Read the paper and take a class or something. That is a false statement you made and it shows your ignorance.
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Old 04-08-2005, 08:44 PM   #173
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Just want to add something to this heated discussion.

First of all, the sector who makes most money in this R/C business should be the Hobby Shop. It is very important that the Hobby Shops make money to support our Hobby. The R/C manufacturer makes some profit, but it would be no more than the profit by all the Hobby Shops combined.

In this case, A/E was bought by TT. People say that the money will be going out of the U.S. I am totally agree with this, however it will not be that much since most of the profit is made by the hobby shop. Also, TT won't be that dumb to close the A/E office in the U.S. The Research and Development is the key of this R/C Business. And the U.S. ground is the best testing ground for the R/C Business. I believe TT will keep the A/E office in order to keep the R&D. Who will work in this A/E office? I believe it would be American, along with the TOP U.S factory driver.

Cheaper parts should reflect in cheaper retail price of the Kit. Cheaper price does not mean lower quality. Cheaper price means the Kit is more affordable that ever. There would be less barrier of entry so that more people will be interested to the hobby. And, who sell the Kit, that's right, hobby shops. And who own the hobby shop? Taiwanese??? I don't think so.

Don't let this "Taiwanese own A/E" thing alter you buying decision. If you're no longer buying A/E, the hobby shops will suffer. Please be patriotic, and support the hobby shops.

Just my idea...
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Old 04-08-2005, 08:53 PM   #174
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Originally posted by SCML
Hey Jeffrey,

Obstacles to this - (just a few)

Average wage for employees/factory workers
Real Estate cost, purchasing, leasing or renting
Government Subsidy
General cost of living

A manufacturer in the US HAS to design everything better than the competitors, because the cost is always going to be higher.

Give me 100 US workers that will be happy to be paid $5000/year, and I'll make this happen.

Sadly, the US has grown stagnant since the industrial age, while other countries have used US technology to surpass the US in manufacturing. All while doing it for a lot less because of the wages they pay to workers, and the influx of US dollars. A yearly wage in most Asian countries is less tha most US citizens could survive on for 2 months.

How do you compete with that? I offer that AE conceded they coudn't. =)

Most US companies are trying to survive in this climate, while overseas companies are trying to dominate. The deck is stacked in thier favor.

I read into this that the principles at AE want to cash out before retirement, which is their right, but it doesn't smell of trying to be competitive, unless your TT.

SCML, thanks for your response but I was really being rhetorical. The point is that sitting here and whine will not get AE back. If you don't like it do something about it. And if you don't want to or it is not possible, then deal with it and move on. Whining is lame.
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Old 04-08-2005, 09:32 PM   #175
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It's real simple. You either fight back or you die. Like in the movie The Last Samurai - the samurais, using swords, bows & arrows, went into battle against soldiers armed with guns, cannons and other modern weaponry. The samurais were more skilled and put up a valiant fight - it seemed all very honorable and chivarlrous but in the end, what happened to them? All dead. (except for Tom Cruise, but he's a white guy...)

Same case with AE. Their competitors have this powerful weapon - cheaper labor. If AE doesn't use this weapon against their foes, they will end up like the samurais... honorable, respected, romanticized and DEAD.
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:00 PM   #176
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Originally posted by jeffreylin
If you don't get your facts straight and make comments like this it will not help your argument. Don't just believe what people tell you, do your own research. Read the paper and take a class or something. That is a false statement you made and it shows your ignorance.
Actually, this statement is 100% accurate. There is nothing I said that is a lie. Obviously, I cannot speak for all foreign companiesbut I was talking about Asian OEM's (in particular Japaneese Autmotive manufactures). It was not a knock against them but more of just telling the truth.

Don't believe for 1 second that newspapers are accurate at all...and as far as taking classes, I have my Masters of Business Association in automotive marketing and have worked for Ford, GM and now currently Chrysler with over 12 years experience in the automotive industry.

If you think the automotive industry is different than I said, you are the one that needs an education...the truth about what's going on in this country is scary....there is 1 single reason why the US ecomony is as bad as it is and why so many Americans are out of work...so keep buying foreign cars and have a nice day. And even more scary, it's not the fault of the Japaneese, they are just taking advantage of a situation that benefits them over others..anyone would do the same.
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:02 PM   #177
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FYI- Did you guys know some of the best carbon fiber chassis and components are made right here in the US- San Diego in fact? There are 6 or 7 major race brands, (Yokomo, Xray and yes, even Thunder Tiger) that import their US made carbon components back to their countries. Kind of ironic

A picture with your post, when trouble shooting, will probably get more rctech help than without...
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:14 PM   #178
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Protc3: From one who can appreciate it......beautiful moldwork

SCML: You forgot workman's comp in you list a couple of dozen posts back.

Abraham Lincoln said it best:

this country will never be taken from an external aggressor, but only from within....
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Old 04-09-2005, 12:00 AM   #179
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I think this entire debate can be summed up easily: don't hate the player, hate the game.

As a side note, many of you who are making statements don't even know how many manufacturing jobs (if any) that AE is responsible for here in the US. Arguing without knowing the facts is, well, dumb.

That said, there are many factors at work here, many of which have been mentioned.

a) Companies must compete with other companies, not idealism. With a globalized marketplace, companies that want to stay competitive must out-maneuver their competitors. As has been noted many times in this thread, if the competitors are outsourcing cheap factory labor overseas, it becomes difficult or impossible for domestic companies to maintain the same margins (either profit or growth) without doing the same. In the US in the past, there were, for the most part, a handful of domestic companies that produced an entirely domestic product. Then, additional competitors entered the marketplace, and were able to offer a comparable product at a cheaper price because they utilized the market factors that exist in Asia and other places to lower their own costs. The American companies then had two choices: either adapt and compete, or watch their sales dwindle and their company eventually decline.

b) Mergers and buyouts are the single best way to ensure corporate success. Have you wondered why it seems every couple of weeks you hear about big companies merging? AT&T and Cingular, Compaq and HP, Sears and K-Mart, the list goes on. Even IBM recently sold its venerable PC-making business to an Asian company. In today's world, and especially in the hyper-charged globalized economy, everything is about streamlining operations and cutting costs. This doesn't make corporations evil, it is just a side effect of lightning-quick communication and the evolution of capitalism. The easiest way for a company (say, Thunder Tiger) to capture a significant share of a new market is to simply buy a competitor. The easiest way for a successful company (say, Associated) facing an increasingly competitive marketplace to stay successful is to allow itself to be bought out by another company with greater financial backing and distribution resources. We saw it happen here with Losi and Horizon; does anybody sit here and say that Losi's products now suck? Not at all.

c) Cost of living in various countries (or even areas within countries) plays a huge roll in all of this. It amazes me how many people here (especially ultra liberal college age protestors!) actually believe that when somebody in China gets paid the equivalent of $1.50 an hour, that they then have to pay the equivalent of $1000/month in rent like we do. There is a huge cultural and cost-of-living adjustment that goes on here. To make a real and useful comparison, everything needs to be calculated as a share of income, and that in turn as a share of GDP. I am not saying that the quality of life of third world factory workers is all that great, but in MANY (note: not all) cases, it is not nearly as bad as we are occasionally made to believe. Buying an RC product that was built on an assembly line in Taiwan does not mean you are supporting a sweatshop.

d) Anybody who believes that a company like Thunder Tiger would pay however much (15 million was quoted, but who knows) for a company like Associated and then knowingly dillute and cheapen the brand is out of their mind. TTR would make this purchase to strengthen their market share here, and that's it. If they suddenly replaced every AE product with something crappy (like so many of you have insinuated) they would be gaining nothing and losing their investment. They are obviously businesspeople, and I give them the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing.

Anyway, just some thoughts. I assume most people will gasp "long post, arrgh" and skip to the next one, but for those still reading at this point, I commend you!
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Old 04-09-2005, 12:40 AM   #180
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I don't know if I will believe it. TT may have a plan to acquire Yokomo.
Hope it is NOT true.
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