Privateers
03-23-2005, 09:10 AM
#1
Privateers
What Is Your Opinions (The Racers) on ROAR Legalizing Brushless Motors and Speed Controls? I Think They are Honestly Trying to Give the Privateers a Chance to Do well Against The Sponsored Guys!!! All we Need Now Are the new Batts 3600 3700 3800 and we Will Be able to Make Run Time and Hang in there With them.
03-23-2005, 09:14 AM
#2
Make run time, didnt think that would be much of an issue with brushless. I believe that you can buy the majority of the parts used by the team guys, only the top crop may get something special, and if you have those skills as a privateer they will shine through no matter what gear you have and someone will want to pick you up.
03-23-2005, 09:19 AM
#3
Wow, I did'nt Realize Brushless Was Good for Run time We would Like to run Modified 1/12th Scale But everyone Struggles with Run Time!! so we have to De-tune our Motors so Much they Are Not Much Faster Then Stock.. Maybe .5 Per Lap If we are Lucky. Our lap times are usually around 9 sec.
03-23-2005, 09:49 AM
#4
Personally, I think they should keep the classes seperate (burshless and brushed) for the simple reason of keeping everything more fair. I have never raced brushless so I do not know the advantages or disadvantages but if brushless has the advantage of runtime and power, by allowing brushless to run with brushed motors, it seems to seperate the playing field even further. Besides, it sounds to me that the people who make the rules are trying to make brushed motors obsolete by allowing both to run together if in fact brushed motor have the advantage.
I love being able to tun my motors and it's another variable that helps to seperate the men from the boys. I do not feel that we should have to level the playing field by making it easier for the privateers to compete with the sponsored guys. If you want that then run a spec class.
By trying to make it easier for people to compete at the highest levels of competition, you start to dummy up the sport. Less innovation, less competition, less benefitial for the sport. Keep in mind there is a reason why these guys are sponsored...BECAUSE THEY ARE THE BEST. No matter what we do or what they drive, they will still be the best. Even if everyone was to drive in a spec class, they would still beat everyone. Then someone would say lets try to level the playing field some more and make the sponsored drivers run rubber tires on carpet while the privateer runs foam...it will never end.
At one time all sponsored guys were privateers and yet they rose to the top and became sponsored. In the end, the cream will rise to the top.
My $.02
I love being able to tun my motors and it's another variable that helps to seperate the men from the boys. I do not feel that we should have to level the playing field by making it easier for the privateers to compete with the sponsored guys. If you want that then run a spec class.
By trying to make it easier for people to compete at the highest levels of competition, you start to dummy up the sport. Less innovation, less competition, less benefitial for the sport. Keep in mind there is a reason why these guys are sponsored...BECAUSE THEY ARE THE BEST. No matter what we do or what they drive, they will still be the best. Even if everyone was to drive in a spec class, they would still beat everyone. Then someone would say lets try to level the playing field some more and make the sponsored drivers run rubber tires on carpet while the privateer runs foam...it will never end.
At one time all sponsored guys were privateers and yet they rose to the top and became sponsored. In the end, the cream will rise to the top.
My $.02
03-23-2005, 09:49 AM
#5
Re: Privateers
Originally posted by dmatter
What Is Your Opinions (The Racers) on ROAR Legalizing Brushless Motors and Speed Controls? I Think They are Honestly Trying to Give the Privateers a Chance to Do well Against The Sponsored Guys!!!
What Is Your Opinions (The Racers) on ROAR Legalizing Brushless Motors and Speed Controls? I Think They are Honestly Trying to Give the Privateers a Chance to Do well Against The Sponsored Guys!!!
On the issue with ROAR....it just seems to me that they either
A) got caught with their pants down
B) Were "influenced" to cut the restrictions
Im not a fan of the current crop of brushless motors, they seem more like a novelty then an actual track threat. But I must admit in anouther five years of development we might see a good brushless setup running some Li-Po batt's
As for ROAR's take on the issue.....they do what they always do....and that is react to a problem after it comes up rather then foresee the problem.
ROAR also seems to take on "Second Fiddle" to manufactures' racing efforts, and also to race promotion in general. ROAR is a weak organization because it sees itself as a "rulebook" and "race promoter" and not as an actuall "Racing League" . and as a result many of its rules and their timing make it seem like its a little short kid in a large schoolyard of big ass bullies. If it could just "Bop" one in the nose they would gain so much more respect....maybe even get a vision as to what a future American R/C league might be....then maybe they could be the ones making the rules instead of reacting to the rules
03-23-2005, 09:57 AM
#6
Privateers will do better against the sponsored guys when they realize it isn't the equipment that separates them. You can buy equipment that is good enough to run with the Pros. It is the preparation, tuning, and driving ability that separates them.
I was at a Trophy race a couple of weeks ago and Factory Drivers Barry Baker, Matt Francis, and Lex Tyler were in attendance. Lex Tyler pulled the motors that he was using for the event out of a retail package. I had almost the same setup on my car that he was using and he was consistently in the 11.6 second range where I was at a 12.1 sec lap. He had more confidence in his driving ability and was able to push his car harder than I was. Barry Baker amazed everyone by turning a 11.2 second lap in the main trying to get by Matt Francis.
I was at a Trophy race a couple of weeks ago and Factory Drivers Barry Baker, Matt Francis, and Lex Tyler were in attendance. Lex Tyler pulled the motors that he was using for the event out of a retail package. I had almost the same setup on my car that he was using and he was consistently in the 11.6 second range where I was at a 12.1 sec lap. He had more confidence in his driving ability and was able to push his car harder than I was. Barry Baker amazed everyone by turning a 11.2 second lap in the main trying to get by Matt Francis.
03-23-2005, 10:33 AM
#7
The Pro's have something the majority of us don't... Practice.... It''s all about practice and mastering setups for various conditions.... Granted, someone like Brian Kinwald is getting stuff you would never find in your LHS.... Brushless's biggest benefit is maintanence, you are not constantly cutting coms and replacing brushes... Are brushed motors just as fast, if not faster? Yes they are.... If you want high performance in brushless you need a Hacker, Shulze, etc.... But a system will put you back 500-600 dollars.... It's probably all relative in the end....
03-23-2005, 10:47 AM
#8
Originally posted by Jack Smash
Privateers will do better against the sponsored guys when they realize it isn't the equipment that separates them.
Privateers will do better against the sponsored guys when they realize it isn't the equipment that separates them.
03-23-2005, 10:54 AM
#9
Re: Re: Privateers
Originally posted by Speedyjay
On the issue with ROAR....it just seems to me that they either
B) Were "influenced" to cut the restrictions
ROAR is a weak organization because it sees itself as a "rulebook" and "race promoter" and not as an actuall "Racing League"
On the issue with ROAR....it just seems to me that they either
B) Were "influenced" to cut the restrictions
ROAR is a weak organization because it sees itself as a "rulebook" and "race promoter" and not as an actuall "Racing League"
Just a privateer on this thread... just somebody with an opinion.
03-23-2005, 11:01 AM
#10
Batteries:
Anyone can buy better batteries than the top pro drivers have. They sell for ~$90 and you can get them from SMC, Fusion, EA, Kinetix and others.
At the Snowbirds the teams were running their best batts that they had matched over the previous few months. A few smaller batt companies had gotten a super late batch of GP3300's done just before the Bird's and it turned out that these were better than anything the teams had. You could buy EA Motorsports packs in the hobby shop that had more run time, voltage and lower IR's than the best pack Ralph Burch had.
If you are serious about going fast in Mod remember that the packs are only good for about 10-12 cycles before they are only good for stock and 19T.
Motors:
Anyone can buy a Reedy or Peak/Orion mod and go just as fast as the factory guys. I run both and I can keep up with any factory driver....on the straight
That is exactly right! The reason for the separation is 50% practice and dedication to understanding their equipment and 50% raw natural talent.
Anyone can buy better batteries than the top pro drivers have. They sell for ~$90 and you can get them from SMC, Fusion, EA, Kinetix and others.
At the Snowbirds the teams were running their best batts that they had matched over the previous few months. A few smaller batt companies had gotten a super late batch of GP3300's done just before the Bird's and it turned out that these were better than anything the teams had. You could buy EA Motorsports packs in the hobby shop that had more run time, voltage and lower IR's than the best pack Ralph Burch had.
If you are serious about going fast in Mod remember that the packs are only good for about 10-12 cycles before they are only good for stock and 19T.
Motors:
Anyone can buy a Reedy or Peak/Orion mod and go just as fast as the factory guys. I run both and I can keep up with any factory driver....on the straight
Privateers will do better against the sponsored guys when they realize it isn't the equipment that separates them.
03-23-2005, 11:06 AM
#11
This is Great! Sounds Like the Factory Guys hate the Fact That the Privateer is Going to get Decent Stuff. Because I Can't stand Running 7:50 Seconds! Open Mod Should be Open Mod!!! make Your Car as Fast as You Can And go For It.. If You want Restrictions Race 19 Turn Or Stock. Leave the Fast Stuff to the Fastest Guys and Fastest Equipment....I Personally Don't Like Restrictions or Cutting and Brushing Every 2 Rounds!!!
03-23-2005, 11:10 AM
#12
Mod 1/12th scale is one of the hardest classes to run. The best drivers always finish at the front. The key to it is battery management. The way you drive a 1/12th scale greatly influences runtime. If you are getting good runtime packs and are setting your motors up for 1/12th scale and still dumping, your trigger finger is to blame.
03-23-2005, 11:11 AM
#13
Sounds like a LOFT (©2005 EJ) problem.
03-23-2005, 11:12 AM
#14
I think people will be better off when they realize that most of the people in this hobby have no aspirations to ever race with the pro drivers...and that having everyone operate under the same set of rules as the pros just makes things more difficult for those of us who just want to go mess around and race on a Tuesday night.
It's hard enough to get new people to do this...and when they find out what's really involved, equipment-wise...they run screaming for the door.
LOL...good one about the whole dumbing down/afraid of technology thing...LOL...yeah, lets stick with the circa-1920 motors when a cheaper, more efficient, reliable and maintenance-free alternative is approved...who's really afraid of moving forward?
I frankly think that brushless is NOT going to be the "next thing" any time soon. I think that by-and-large, most existing hard-core R/C racers have too much of their identity wrapped up in the status quo to ever make the change to brushless. Everyone says "Wouldn't it be great if...?", but people are too committed to the existing equipment or too afraid to be seen as a "cheater" to make the move. Peer pressure can be an evil thing.
The manufacturers can promote all they want, but unless some actual club racers make the move and start creating some momentum in the direction of brushless...as great as the current Novak motors are, brushless in cars will be the next pet rock.
Running them in a separate class will ensure that brushless will never become viable. Run them together...if they're really better, then people will buy them. If they're not, they won't.
At my track, the numbers are at least 20:1 stock to mod. Last night, there was not one mod motor...on a busy Saturday, there may be one heat of mod touring (out of 15 heats). It's only the big dogs and sportsman/intermediate need not apply.
When and how is brushless going to get to the rest of us? I run a 4300 with 5 cells that is nowhere near as fast as a decent stocker...and there are people who whine about it. Last night, I got passed like I was going backwards by a brushed stock guy who was telling his friend how his motor was such a pig...and I get the grief because my motor isn't "legal".
To me, it's quite obvious that the argument over brushless is not about parity or cost, it's about identity and peer pressure and protecting the status quo.
It's hard enough to get new people to do this...and when they find out what's really involved, equipment-wise...they run screaming for the door.
LOL...good one about the whole dumbing down/afraid of technology thing...LOL...yeah, lets stick with the circa-1920 motors when a cheaper, more efficient, reliable and maintenance-free alternative is approved...who's really afraid of moving forward?
I frankly think that brushless is NOT going to be the "next thing" any time soon. I think that by-and-large, most existing hard-core R/C racers have too much of their identity wrapped up in the status quo to ever make the change to brushless. Everyone says "Wouldn't it be great if...?", but people are too committed to the existing equipment or too afraid to be seen as a "cheater" to make the move. Peer pressure can be an evil thing.
The manufacturers can promote all they want, but unless some actual club racers make the move and start creating some momentum in the direction of brushless...as great as the current Novak motors are, brushless in cars will be the next pet rock.
Running them in a separate class will ensure that brushless will never become viable. Run them together...if they're really better, then people will buy them. If they're not, they won't.
At my track, the numbers are at least 20:1 stock to mod. Last night, there was not one mod motor...on a busy Saturday, there may be one heat of mod touring (out of 15 heats). It's only the big dogs and sportsman/intermediate need not apply.
When and how is brushless going to get to the rest of us? I run a 4300 with 5 cells that is nowhere near as fast as a decent stocker...and there are people who whine about it. Last night, I got passed like I was going backwards by a brushed stock guy who was telling his friend how his motor was such a pig...and I get the grief because my motor isn't "legal".
To me, it's quite obvious that the argument over brushless is not about parity or cost, it's about identity and peer pressure and protecting the status quo.
03-23-2005, 11:16 AM
#15
Originally posted by dmatter
This is Great! Sounds Like the Factory Guys hate the Fact That the Privateer is Going to get Decent Stuff. Because I Can't stand Running 7:50 Seconds! Open Mod Should be Open Mod!!! make Your Car as Fast as You Can And go For It.. If You want Restrictions Race 19 Turn Or Stock. Leave the Fast Stuff to the Fastest Guys and Fastest Equipment....I Personally Don't Like Restrictions or Cutting and Brushing Every 2 Rounds!!!
This is Great! Sounds Like the Factory Guys hate the Fact That the Privateer is Going to get Decent Stuff. Because I Can't stand Running 7:50 Seconds! Open Mod Should be Open Mod!!! make Your Car as Fast as You Can And go For It.. If You want Restrictions Race 19 Turn Or Stock. Leave the Fast Stuff to the Fastest Guys and Fastest Equipment....I Personally Don't Like Restrictions or Cutting and Brushing Every 2 Rounds!!!
Its the throttle control and having a car with TONS of steering-but is still pretty easy to drive thats the real challenge of modified. I wold gear yours up-do the throttle control thing and let the very steep learning curve play its course.
Now having said this-I am not good in modified anything-but when i do run mod-I run a very fast car, but try to drive it slow-if that makes sense.
Ray
