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Old 12-27-2014, 11:58 AM   #1546
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Gotta leave for racing soon, so I will be quick....

I have not tried gray/gre. I am currently a fan of blu/blu with a long soak on the rear.

I run .45 front springs on both, I use pivot ball to steering block gap as my reference now, not king pin length. I "visualize" approximately .010" gap on each. King pin numbers could actually preload some springs and take steering away or not be tight enough and the car can dump over on it's nose on entry. I like gap better.

I run as much camber as the car will allow or begins to lift/traction roll and then back it off. That winds up being 1/2 to 1 1/4* depending on grip. Each track is different, therefore your camber will not be cookie cutter here, there or somewhere else. Let the car tell you how much camber you want, not me!

Body??? if you are trying to use an AMR like many do, that is a mod body and it won't steer enough. Try a Lola or a R8C.

Move your battery forward. Yes, it will take away some off power steering but the on power will improved.

Gotta run!
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Old 12-27-2014, 12:07 PM   #1547
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Gotta leave for racing soon, so I will be quick....

I have not tried gray/gre. I am currently a fan of blu/blu with a long soak on the rear.

I run .45 front springs on both, I use pivot ball to steering block gap as my reference now, not king pin length. I "visualize" approximately .010" gap on each. King pin numbers could actually preload some springs and take steering away or not be tight enough and the car can dump over on yit's nose on entry. I like gap better.

I run as much camber as the car will allow or begins to lift/traction roll and then back it off. That winds up being 1/2 to 1 1/4* depending on grip. Each track is different, therefore your camber will not be cookie cutter here, there or somewhere else. Let the car tell you how much camber you want, not me!

Body??? if you are trying to use an AMR like many do, that is a mod body and it won't steer enough. Try a Lola or a R8C.

Move your battery forward. Yes, it will take away some off power steering but the on power will improved.

Gotta run!
Huge help, thanks!
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Old 12-27-2014, 04:57 PM   #1548
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The Slapmaster is a lot braver than me, the front of my car runs .55's or if the back feels really stuck I run .50's. The car steers hard no matter what I do, but other people drive my car and say it's lazy...

I just realized that if I'm honest I am probably no longer qualified to give 1/12 scale setup advice. My cars setup is so weird people ask how it's drivable, let alone fast.
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Old 12-27-2014, 05:11 PM   #1549
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.............

..........The mod car has 2 H Braces CA'ed together with the middle cut out and a long upper arm. What that does is make up a 4mm roll center spacer flattening out the upper arm. It probably flattens it too much and is the source of my "on" steering issue. This is the one thing I change with grip level in the track.

.....
Brian, are you placing your servo between the front suspension pieces or are you locating it behind the suspension and in front of the other electronics? I am having trouble visualizing placing the servo between the suspension uprights and still using the long arm setup. If you have it rearward of the front suspension, is is flat to the chassis or mounted on an angle?
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Old 12-28-2014, 10:51 PM   #1550
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Man, I am exhausted. We reconstructed our layout at our club track starting about noon on Sat. Worked 4 hours. Raced till midnight. Laid down current track records in both stock and mod and capped both with W's. Had a beer with the boys at midnight. Hopped outta bed early this morning, scooped up my brother, off to dad's RV for some Seahawks tailgating. Watched the stingy LOB keep the Rams to 6. Collapsed on the cushy couch for some high lights. The sheets are calling me out!

David, I am using the Airtronics 94761 with the upper ear trimmed off. If you trim the middle out of the H Brace, it all clears. Make sure the two to not touch just in case there is any flex, you do not want to add the "contact". The servo is located right where Frank placed the holes. It's perfect! Although I do put a 1/2mm shim between the servo and the chassis or the servo saver would be below the chassis. You have to shim more if you use the 201 medium saver.

I found .55 and .50's to initiate turn in more then .45. .50 and .55 can carry more entry speed, but if you scrub the car too much entering....well you loose. .45 with nearly no gap is pretty civilized on entry and mid-exit is better then .50-.55. .55 can whip the rear tires loose too. .55 are good if you have iic style grip.

I ran blu/gre on both mod and stock last Sat on a fresh layout. Blu/blu was too loose at the tail. Green rears can be a little dicy in the first 90 seconds. A tip one of our local racers came up with is to dry green's off about 10-15 minutes prior to the run. It works! I will have to wait till our grip fills in a bit more before I put blu back on the rear.
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Old 12-29-2014, 04:43 AM   #1551
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Man, I am exhausted. We reconstructed our layout at our club track starting about noon on Sat. Worked 4 hours. Raced till midnight. Laid down current track records in both stock and mod and capped both with W's. Had a beer with the boys at midnight. Hopped outta bed early this morning, scooped up my brother, off to dad's RV for some Seahawks tailgating. Watched the stingy LOB keep the Rams to 6. Collapsed on the cushy couch for some high lights. The sheets are calling me out!

David, I am using the Airtronics 94761 with the upper ear trimmed off. If you trim the middle out of the H Brace, it all clears. Make sure the two to not touch just in case there is any flex, you do not want to add the "contact". The servo is located right where Frank placed the holes. It's perfect! Although I do put a 1/2mm shim between the servo and the chassis or the servo saver would be below the chassis. You have to shim more if you use the 201 medium saver.

I found .55 and .50's to initiate turn in more then .45. .50 and .55 can carry more entry speed, but if you scrub the car too much entering....well you loose. .45 with nearly no gap is pretty civilized on entry and mid-exit is better then .50-.55. .55 can whip the rear tires loose too. .55 are good if you have iic style grip.

I ran blu/gre on both mod and stock last Sat on a fresh layout. Blu/blu was too loose at the tail. Green rears can be a little dicy in the first 90 seconds. A tip one of our local racers came up with is to dry green's off about 10-15 minutes prior to the run. It works! I will have to wait till our grip fills in a bit more before I put blu back on the rear.

Gee, Brian. You sound like a sprint car driver. LOL

Thanks for the info. I run the Sanwa SRG-HR servo. It has the same case as the 94761, but has faster transit speed and good enough torque to also steer my WGT chassis.

Surprised to hear that blue rears ran more loose than the greens. It has been opposite for me. I felt blue were pretty close to magenta on the rear, but didn't pick up fuz or debris as the magenta. I work at Hobbytown here in Indy. We are trying to get Horizon to carry blue and double blue front tires. If everyone asks Horizon to stock these incredible front tires, they should pick them up.
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Old 12-29-2014, 07:14 AM   #1552
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Where do the new front double blues and Orange rears compare to the other tires?
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Old 12-29-2014, 09:49 AM   #1553
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I have very limited experience with double blu front and orange rear. I ran a set at iic in 13.5 and again at our home track in stock. If iic was a 8 out of 10 for traction and our home track a 5 for reference.... I took my durometer and measured 45 on a blue, 47-48 on 2blu which really means nothing. I was told that 2blu is nothing more then the perimeter of the "mat" of blu foam prior to cutting. Again, doesn't matter. What matters is how it handles on the track. The only time I have raced 2blu is with orange on the rear. Org is supposed to be an asphalt tire (so is red). It just so happens that org dabbles on the brink of working in the carpet world. Going out on a limb, you need a higher grip to have org work right.

At iic, on freshies cut to 40.4/41.5 in 13.5, it was a real manageable combo. I don't recall anything evil or tippy. But I don't recall hot lapping our Team, so no silver bullet for me. Ran them a second time and they were edgy/tippy and I wore through the front by the end of the run.

At home, 2bl/org freshies cut to 40.4/42 with 17.5, it was loose accelerating. Entry was fine. Definitely had to be careful out of the hole. Our track did not have enough grip to stick org down.

Marc used 2bl/2bl at Worlds for the win. I would say that grip was a 2. Very low. I recall using blu/gre. Marc also had short factory arms, no top brace, short upper rear pod plate (factory). All these items are best for lower grip. Apparently it was the hot ticket. I was set up for more grip and therefore needed different tires to get the car to work.

David, there could be a little lost in translation. Blu rears ran loose on a fresh layout. IMO blu rears need a certain amount of traction to be good. Fresh layout will not be enough for blu rr. Gre rr is a touch freer then blu when grip is up, making it a great rear choice in mod if you need the car to rotate just a little more then blu.
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Old 12-29-2014, 10:14 AM   #1554
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Thanks for your help Brian.
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Old 12-29-2014, 10:30 AM   #1555
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I have very limited experience with double blu front and orange rear. I ran a set at iic in 13.5 and again at our home track in stock. If iic was a 8 out of 10 for traction and our home track a 5 for reference.... I took my durometer and measured 45 on a blue, 47-48 on 2blu which really means nothing. I was told that 2blu is nothing more then the perimeter of the "mat" of blu foam prior to cutting. Again, doesn't matter. What matters is how it handles on the track. The only time I have raced 2blu is with orange on the rear. Org is supposed to be an asphalt tire (so is red). It just so happens that org dabbles on the brink of working in the carpet world. Going out on a limb, you need a higher grip to have org work right.

At iic, on freshies cut to 40.4/41.5 in 13.5, it was a real manageable combo. I don't recall anything evil or tippy. But I don't recall hot lapping our Team, so no silver bullet for me. Ran them a second time and they were edgy/tippy and I wore through the front by the end of the run.

At home, 2bl/org freshies cut to 40.4/42 with 17.5, it was loose accelerating. Entry was fine. Definitely had to be careful out of the hole. Our track did not have enough grip to stick org down.

Marc used 2bl/2bl at Worlds for the win. I would say that grip was a 2. Very low. I recall using blu/gre. Marc also had short factory arms, no top brace, short upper rear pod plate (factory). All these items are best for lower grip. Apparently it was the hot ticket. I was set up for more grip and therefore needed different tires to get the car to work.

David, there could be a little lost in translation. Blu rears ran loose on a fresh layout. IMO blu rears need a certain amount of traction to be good. Fresh layout will not be enough for blu rr. Gre rr is a touch freer then blu when grip is up, making it a great rear choice in mod if you need the car to rotate just a little more then blu.
Another thing about green vs. blue, greens are going to have a ton more forward bite and work a lot better when grip is low. Blues just don't make the forward bite to work when grip is really low, even in 17.5. I've had them just spin out on acceleration much like was described above. The green vs. blue difference is really quite tricky because they both have their perks in both high and low grip.

As far as 2blue vs blue fronts, in a reasonable amount of testing we have found that the 2blue fronts are almost always more ideal in stock class as they don't turn quite as hard and give the car a more mellow feel. The blue fronts are good in faster classes though from what we have found.
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Old 12-29-2014, 04:41 PM   #1556
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.............

David, there could be a little lost in translation. Blu rears ran loose on a fresh layout. IMO blu rears need a certain amount of traction to be good. Fresh layout will not be enough for blu rr. Gre rr is a touch freer then blu when grip is up, making it a great rear choice in mod if you need the car to rotate just a little more then blu.
OK, that it good. I was lost a little there. Have run the 2bl on the front only and that was after we had a little traction build up that day. Ran blue rears several times and that was under the same scenario. I like the green rear as it let the car free up. I still run inline and that was all I needed there. The blue front has been awesome as it turns a tighter circle than the magenta. Grey fronts are close to the blue but wear too much and are a little touchy. I have not been running these tires so much lately as I don't want to use them up when I don't have to. So, I think that matches your comments about the tires. And I want to apologize here as I have turned this into a tire discussion and that wasn't my intent. I want to talk about the car.
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Old 12-29-2014, 04:55 PM   #1557
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......

.........Marc also had short factory arms, no top brace, short upper rear pod plate (factory). All these items are best for lower grip. .....
I noticed from the pictures on the CRC website of Marc's car that he used the components and configuration you mentioned. So the short upper rear pod plate was the one supplied on the WC kit? Did he also use a short lower pod plate to match? Not surprised the grip was not very high. It wasn't very high the times I ran at MINREG.

So now you are working on longer front suspension arms instead of the short arms Marc used. Is that because there is a difference in the traction you have at home versus traction at the World's? Would you say the 2 mm thick roll center plate would be best as compare to the 4mm you mentioned in an earlier post? Or would something in the 3mm range be better?
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Old 12-30-2014, 12:12 AM   #1558
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No worries, we're talking about CRC tires aren't we?

Yes, the shorter upper rear pod plate is the one that comes with the kit. When Franks says that Marc's car is near factory, he's right. The only two parts I can see that are "not kit" is the green center spring and if you look close there is a roll center spacer sandwiched between the arm and caster block. Yes, there are spacers under the rear body posts and a extra plastic ant mnt that Dumper forgot to remove when he built it.

That sure looks like the Alter Ego rear plate (long one). Otherwise I think you would notice the tubes swept in at the middle some.

I am drawing a conclusion that the short upper rear pod plate is better for stock and low grip mod. The optional long upper pod plate is better for mod medium to high grip. Results can vary! That said, I am using the long upper pod plate on my stock car....too lazy to change it!

You can not say which roll center plate is best. You choose what you need based off of grip level. If you have low grip, bolt the caster block right to the arm to get the most camber gain. As grip increases, you raise the caster block (upper hinge pin) which reduces camber gain. I ran 4mm at iic. While I had solid runs, I wasn't a contender. I do think 4mm is a bit too much, even for high grip mod. What I do now it use a single H Brace that is only 2mm thick and shim it with either a yellow or orange ride height shim to fine tune to whatever I need. I am currently using a org, so 2mm for the h brace + .030/.75 = that comes to a 2.75mm spacer. Grip was pretty good on our track for fresh layout. If my car begins to get grabby or tippy, I will add my top brace back on.
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Old 12-30-2014, 05:18 PM   #1559
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No worries, we're talking about CRC tires aren't we?

Yes, the shorter upper rear pod plate is the one that comes with the kit. When Franks says that Marc's car is near factory, he's right. The only two parts I can see that are "not kit" is the green center spring and if you look close there is a roll center spacer sandwiched between the arm and caster block. Yes, there are spacers under the rear body posts and a extra plastic ant mnt that Dumper forgot to remove when he built it.

That sure looks like the Alter Ego rear plate (long one). Otherwise I think you would notice the tubes swept in at the middle some.

I am drawing a conclusion that the short upper rear pod plate is better for stock and low grip mod. The optional long upper pod plate is better for mod medium to high grip. Results can vary! That said, I am using the long upper pod plate on my stock car....too lazy to change it!

You can not say which roll center plate is best. You choose what you need based off of grip level. If you have low grip, bolt the caster block right to the arm to get the most camber gain. As grip increases, you raise the caster block (upper hinge pin) which reduces camber gain. I ran 4mm at iic. While I had solid runs, I wasn't a contender. I do think 4mm is a bit too much, even for high grip mod. What I do now it use a single H Brace that is only 2mm thick and shim it with either a yellow or orange ride height shim to fine tune to whatever I need. I am currently using a org, so 2mm for the h brace + .030/.75 = that comes to a 2.75mm spacer. Grip was pretty good on our track for fresh layout. If my car begins to get grabby or tippy, I will add my top brace back on.

Very good. I never thought to use the ride height shims under the H-frame pieces. So does the long rear pod upper plate move the upper shock mount forward giving steeper angle to the shock? Or did you move the antenna mount forward too?
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Old 12-30-2014, 06:02 PM   #1560
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you move both.
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