Legalise Software *Fixed* Timing?
09-07-2012, 03:19 AM
#16
09-07-2012, 06:10 AM
#17
But what if I was running an esc with the timing option, and a motor with the timing option, wouldn't I now have access to much more timing? Not necessarily going to be a huge advantage, but having access to more timing then the next guy has to be worth something? And a lot of the blinky only ESCs are not software update-able, which means if it was true you have more of a disadvantage and therefore need a new esc?
If you could adjust the timing with the software then everyone would have access to the whole range of reasonable timing. There is a limit at which timing stops becoming useful. The latest motors have the timing range they have because the manufacturer's think that is optimal, going past the Revtech's 50 degrees isn't going to be an advantage. So if I can go to 50 degrees on a Speed Passion with software, it won't matter if I've got there as 10+40 or 0+40, but going to 55 no matter how I do it is unlikely to help.
09-07-2012, 06:42 AM
#18
Lots of new drivers buy a motor only to find that it is not well suited to blinky racing because there isn't sufficient timing adjustment.
--Maybe but the odds aren't that high anymore. Your not going to go wrong with the major brands newer motors at all. Thunder Power, Reedy, Trinity/Epic, etc.
The cheaper motors don't have the range of timing adjustment needed, this makes them more competitive.
--You get what you pay for. Why would you buy a 50 dollar motor and expect it to be on the same level as the $80 dollar motor?
This is even more of an issue in the slowest beginner spec classes because some kits don't let you gear the car high enough to make up for lack of timing.
--This one I will agree with the TC4 which was not designed for brushless stock so it doesn't have the ability to properly handle it. But the quickest way to blow a motor is add more timing it builds heat faster.
It's not. That's the point.
--Correct so once again don't rely on a bargin basement motor and use normal timing.
They will be no more prone to heat than if you overgear them or if you turn the timing up on the can of a motor that is capable of it.
--I have found with my testing of motors that if you find the area of a sweet spot in gearing you won't have any issues. You can actually over gear the motors which acts the same as under gearing. Timing can add speed quickly but adds more heat than having a properly geared car. Yes I am even talking all the way from a 2.8 fdr to a 4.0 fdr in testing.
Sure, some motors are better than others, some definitely have an edge though, and a large part of the variation we currently see in blinky classes is due to different adjustability in timing.
Gearing can't make up all the difference from a lack of timing adjustment.
--Once again I agree to a point. If you but a Reedy Sonic, a Thunder Power Z3R, Trinity D3.5/RevTech, etc there can be a difference but a good driver can do well with any of the above.
My fully programmable, ROAR legal, 1S capable 120A ESC costs $104
But as I've already pointed out, this is a minor software tweak, you wouldn't have to buy a new ESC.
--I'm refering to buying a new ESC. The consumer would feel that the person who is winning usually feels that its equiptment and wants to upgrade instead of the fact that there setup is off. Which can cause ESC battles. I will take a motor battle but not an ESC one its crazy expensive.
Even dedicated zero timing ESCs like the Novak GTB have settings: "Adjustable Parameters in all profiles: Minimum Brake, Drag Brake, Deadband, and Minimum Drive," adding one more would be dead easy for ESC manufacturers.
And this is not a setting that can be subject to development, there is no way to make it better with clever programming. It has exactly the same effect in exactly the same way as motor timing. So, you wouldn't have to buy a new ESC any more regularly than you do now, not to be competitive anyway.
I'm sure it was to make it so you didn't have to have access to the latest software that only the team guys had.
--That and I know people who bought three or four different esc's cause they felt that the boost profile was better in a certain new esc of the month.
Again, even if you didn't have an ESC capable of this you'd still be able to do it with the motor if you have a motor capable of a good range of timing adjustment (just like now).
--exactly my point. Why allow someone to adjust both? It will start an expense battle.
--Maybe but the odds aren't that high anymore. Your not going to go wrong with the major brands newer motors at all. Thunder Power, Reedy, Trinity/Epic, etc.
The cheaper motors don't have the range of timing adjustment needed, this makes them more competitive.
--You get what you pay for. Why would you buy a 50 dollar motor and expect it to be on the same level as the $80 dollar motor?
This is even more of an issue in the slowest beginner spec classes because some kits don't let you gear the car high enough to make up for lack of timing.
--This one I will agree with the TC4 which was not designed for brushless stock so it doesn't have the ability to properly handle it. But the quickest way to blow a motor is add more timing it builds heat faster.
It's not. That's the point.
--Correct so once again don't rely on a bargin basement motor and use normal timing.
They will be no more prone to heat than if you overgear them or if you turn the timing up on the can of a motor that is capable of it.
--I have found with my testing of motors that if you find the area of a sweet spot in gearing you won't have any issues. You can actually over gear the motors which acts the same as under gearing. Timing can add speed quickly but adds more heat than having a properly geared car. Yes I am even talking all the way from a 2.8 fdr to a 4.0 fdr in testing.
Sure, some motors are better than others, some definitely have an edge though, and a large part of the variation we currently see in blinky classes is due to different adjustability in timing.
Gearing can't make up all the difference from a lack of timing adjustment.
--Once again I agree to a point. If you but a Reedy Sonic, a Thunder Power Z3R, Trinity D3.5/RevTech, etc there can be a difference but a good driver can do well with any of the above.
My fully programmable, ROAR legal, 1S capable 120A ESC costs $104
But as I've already pointed out, this is a minor software tweak, you wouldn't have to buy a new ESC.
--I'm refering to buying a new ESC. The consumer would feel that the person who is winning usually feels that its equiptment and wants to upgrade instead of the fact that there setup is off. Which can cause ESC battles. I will take a motor battle but not an ESC one its crazy expensive.
Even dedicated zero timing ESCs like the Novak GTB have settings: "Adjustable Parameters in all profiles: Minimum Brake, Drag Brake, Deadband, and Minimum Drive," adding one more would be dead easy for ESC manufacturers.
And this is not a setting that can be subject to development, there is no way to make it better with clever programming. It has exactly the same effect in exactly the same way as motor timing. So, you wouldn't have to buy a new ESC any more regularly than you do now, not to be competitive anyway.
I'm sure it was to make it so you didn't have to have access to the latest software that only the team guys had.
--That and I know people who bought three or four different esc's cause they felt that the boost profile was better in a certain new esc of the month.
Again, even if you didn't have an ESC capable of this you'd still be able to do it with the motor if you have a motor capable of a good range of timing adjustment (just like now).
--exactly my point. Why allow someone to adjust both? It will start an expense battle.
-- designates my responses
09-07-2012, 07:12 AM
#19
My thoughts are for the national events the current rules are fine and I wouldn't change them. I don't think you will get any first timers going to a national event as their first race, it will be at club level. At club level you don't have to follow the rules letter by letter so, at my local club, if a beginner buys the wrong equipment we will bend the rules for them so they can keep up. If this means letting them run a little timing in blinky so be it - it's just club racing and fun is the priority. The complex and strict rules can come later once the racer has advanced and wants to compete at a higher level.
09-07-2012, 07:24 AM
#20
New drivers have enough trouble handling the power of even the slowest 17.5
You want to help out the slow folks, teach them setup and driving etiquette
The more experienced drivers know how to time & gear a car, and aren't concerned about which motor goes to ELEVEN
You want to help out the slow folks, teach them setup and driving etiquette
The more experienced drivers know how to time & gear a car, and aren't concerned about which motor goes to ELEVEN
09-07-2012, 12:51 PM
#21
Locked timing is a problem since not every motor has the same timing, so you would end up with the "Tuners" dyno running all the motors to find the best one of a batch, and selling it at a stupidly high selling price. It doesnt make for fair racing unless you are running a "Claimer Rule", and someone else has the oppertunity to buy the motor at the end of the race.
I support your idea of having a selectable static ESC timing, HW used to have that function before the turbo/boost software came out, and I thought the 508 still had some of those options. The LRP Sphere has its "power" modes, and that is mostly changing of the static timing. Its ROAR Legal.
Shawn
09-07-2012, 05:07 PM
#22
The rules are good the way they are now, even if some experienced racer can get more out of their motors than others. There will always be ways to make motors faster, and the search for that knowledge(secret) is necessary to keep racers interested.... I feel the difference in battery charging techniques, and more consistent driving/setup are the real difference makers nowadays.......
09-07-2012, 05:21 PM
#23
The rules are good the way they are now, even if some experienced racer can get more out of their motors than others. There will always be ways to make motors faster, and the search for that knowledge(secret) is necessary to keep racers interested.... I feel the difference in battery charging techniques, and more consistent driving/setup are the real difference makers nowadays.......
The rules prevent you using any method other than CC/CV, you can't charge at a higher C than the battery manufacturer says is safe (or 1C if they don't specify), the battery has to be in a narrow temperature range around ambient, there is a maximum voltage the pack can be at the start of the race.
Apart from storing the packs correctly, and picking how soon you charge them before the race, I don't see what else there really is you are allowed to do...
09-07-2012, 05:22 PM
#24
Except most fast guys never ran 24 degrees. You could cheat the comm by giving it a small turn for acouple of degrees, cut your brushes, or re-align your brush hood to gain an extra couple of degrees of timing, for the extra speed you needed. Tuning a brushed motor was an art.
Locked timing is a problem since not every motor has the same timing, so you would end up with the "Tuners" dyno running all the motors to find the best one of a batch, and selling it at a stupidly high selling price. It doesnt make for fair racing unless you are running a "Claimer Rule", and someone else has the oppertunity to buy the motor at the end of the race.
I support your idea of having a selectable static ESC timing, HW used to have that function before the turbo/boost software came out, and I thought the 508 still had some of those options. The LRP Sphere has its "power" modes, and that is mostly changing of the static timing. Its ROAR Legal.
Shawn
Locked timing is a problem since not every motor has the same timing, so you would end up with the "Tuners" dyno running all the motors to find the best one of a batch, and selling it at a stupidly high selling price. It doesnt make for fair racing unless you are running a "Claimer Rule", and someone else has the oppertunity to buy the motor at the end of the race.
I support your idea of having a selectable static ESC timing, HW used to have that function before the turbo/boost software came out, and I thought the 508 still had some of those options. The LRP Sphere has its "power" modes, and that is mostly changing of the static timing. Its ROAR Legal.
Shawn
Oh yeah I can't tell you how many times stock comms were cut down. Brushes were setup for one or two runs. Springs were adjusted, Comm drops galore, I know at a few points I would go to the hobby shop grab all 20 motors they had open em and buy the top 2-5. Take one cut the comm, Shave Brushes, Tweak Springs. I bet I spent more on motors then than I do now even with rotors.
To put things simply. Out of a batch of 100 motors the variance was not big enough to quantify a driver winning because they got a team motor. I am talking brushless. I know for a fact Andrew Knapp was the fastest driver at the On-Road Nats this year in 17.5. He got his motor from the "Team" box. I got my motor off the shelf. Same timing on both motors. A little different gearing. I was just as fast on the straight. Thats what I mean by if you get a good motor Trinity, Reedy, TP, etc.
09-07-2012, 07:41 PM
#26
Finding the right gearing for both the motor & track can take some time and lots of practice and if you add into the equation esc timing then it's only going to add to the amount of time and testing required to find that sweet spot.
Also what about all those who have bought 0 timing esc's such as the HW Justock, SP Club Stock and Novak Edge. Are you going to say to those that have 0 timing esc's that will have to go out and buy a new esc IF the manufactures refuse to do any software updates for them?
And from a scrutineering point of view, how is this going to be policed? what's to stop someone for example sneaking in a small percentage of boost? Will all the esc's have to be unplugged and plugged into a device to display that they are not using boost? Zero timing esc racing is easier to scrutineer as the esc's have a blinking light when set into 0 timing mode.
Originally Posted by Radio Active
The idea behind timing on the ESC is partly to reduce the strain on your pay packet, it will give older motors a new lease of life. It also means that timing boards on certain motors wouldn't be necessary.
Also if you're sponsored by a particular motor manufacturer there is no one saying you have to use a motor with sensor board options. If people do their research they will find out either which motors work for a particular class/track and/or which ones are the most "fiddly" or easiest to set up.
If some have purchased the "wrong" motor then that is not the fault of the clubs, and no finger can be pointed at anyone if they did buy the wrong type. They may have been misinformed, sold the wrong type or as you said lured by the low cost.
Originally Posted by Radio Active
I'm sure in the right circumstances you can do well with the HW 0 timed motor, but that's not been the experience of people I've talked to. And from racing offroad Stock I know that playing with my timing rather than just my gearing (as I did to begin with) has definitely helped my car go faster.
Who and how many people have you been talking to in this regard? If so many are not content with the current blinky rules, then why at the last 3 rounds of the Challenge Cup which included people & clubs from all over NSW saw that the most popular class on the day was 21.5 blinky?
Also correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the current AARCMCC rules state -
"Speed controllers eligible for Stock classes must provide zero timing advance, along with disabling
advanced motor control functions (i.e. Boost, Cheat Mode, Turbo, etc). When the "0 Boost" profile is
enabled, it shall be indicated by a blinking LED while the ESC is armed and in neutral position. The
commutation sequence is limited to "6-step" type and commutation of the speed control must follow
the motors hall sensor signals 1:1, e.g. no shifted timing (no matter if advanced or retarded) is allowed
at any RPM."
If you are playing with your esc timing whilst racing off road stock has helped your car go faster in racing then aren't you operating outside of the AARCMC rules making it unfair to others that you are racing with?
Furthermore why are you bringing this up in the on road thread which is a totally different doctrine & style of racing? In the last six months have you had any personal experience in racing 0 timing on road racing at club, inter club or state level? Zero timing is working for on road as it is making it easier for novices to step into the next class of racing by not making things more complicated.
Originally Posted by Radio Active
Also, gearing is only an option if you have a car you can fit the pinion and spur on that you need. There are still plenty of entry level kits out there that aren't capable of being geared appropriately in 21.5 blinky without timing. Not to mention that the spurs and pinions you need are hard to find if you are a beginner.
Even if a entry level car such as a Tamiya TT01 was able to achieve an optimal gearing level it'd still never be a competitive car to challenge those at the pointy end of the class.
Dan, if you're wishing to propose this idea for off road racing than that's well and good as it may have the favorable results you are tying to put across, but in on road 21.5 blinky is working and it doesn't need any changes like you are proposing.
Cheers
Rob.
Last edited by ta04evah; 09-07-2012 at 09:35 PM.
09-08-2012, 08:26 AM
#27
What I'm trying really hard and failing to get across to you Rob is that this wouldn't be a change, it's only a minor tweak so that some people with otherwise inferior motors can do exactly what other people are already doing with motors with a broader timing range.
I want to be clear on this point. People can already do everything on the can that software would be able to do. It's just that not everyone can do it.
The dedicated zero timing ESCs would therefore be fine. If you don't feel you need to buy the latest super adjustable timing motor then you also won't feel the need for a timing capable ESC, because both will do the same thing.
You should have no more concern about someone blowing their motor with this rule tweak than you should now.
All non-boosted classes have the same issue, doesn't matter whether it is 21.5 Onroad or Offroad Stock. I agree the current 21.5 blinky format we have in Aus is incredibly popular, I don't want to change it. I only give access to the biggest tuning weapon the big bucks guys have to everyone, and save the club racers with old B grade equipment from feeling that they need to update to compete at club level.
I want to be clear on this point. People can already do everything on the can that software would be able to do. It's just that not everyone can do it.
The dedicated zero timing ESCs would therefore be fine. If you don't feel you need to buy the latest super adjustable timing motor then you also won't feel the need for a timing capable ESC, because both will do the same thing.
You should have no more concern about someone blowing their motor with this rule tweak than you should now.
All non-boosted classes have the same issue, doesn't matter whether it is 21.5 Onroad or Offroad Stock. I agree the current 21.5 blinky format we have in Aus is incredibly popular, I don't want to change it. I only give access to the biggest tuning weapon the big bucks guys have to everyone, and save the club racers with old B grade equipment from feeling that they need to update to compete at club level.
09-08-2012, 09:52 AM
#28
Someone new to R/C needs to focus on learning to drive & setup their car more than anything else. I think the keyword, once the car is setup decent, is Practice, Practice, Practice! Watch the fast guys, it it not just their gear that makes them fast, it is the hours of racing + practice they put on top of their knowledge about setup and dealing with changing conditions on race day.
You cannot buy perfect vision, astounding reflexes, & nerves of steel like a world level racer needs to have. A "newb" gains nothing in the long run by worrying about anything until they can do 5-8 minutes on the track without hitting a board or other racer.
I don't think anything needs to change at the "big" races. We don't need a "rule change of the week" approach. Leave well enough alone and just race. When something needs to change it will be obvious. Big technology steps like digital servos, LIPO batteries, 2.4 ghz radios, and brushless motors are huge compared to whether you make timing changes in the motor or in the ESC.
At the local club level, as has been said before, tweak the rules to suit the local racers and keep the hobby fun. If you are ready to run a "big" race, you'll know the rule differences your local track uses and run the "big" race rules as preparation.
09-08-2012, 10:22 AM
#30
This thread is dumb. Leave the great racing that the blinky rules create alone.