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Old 02-28-2009, 12:18 AM   #15451
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I am wanting to change my setup. At the moment i can drive the car very consistently. But I feel that the car is a bit TOO safe. Anyone got any ideas. I want to do some testing with differant setups to find the best one. I run rubber tyres on carpet with medium grip levels.
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Old 02-28-2009, 05:44 AM   #15452
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I am wanting to change my setup. At the moment i can drive the car very consistently. But I feel that the car is a bit TOO safe. Anyone got any ideas. I want to do some testing with differant setups to find the best one. I run rubber tyres on carpet with medium grip levels.
I'd possibly got to 3mm ackerman instead of 2, possibly change the rear toe to 2 instead of 3, and if I'm reading the droop correctly I'd go with 6mm front and 5mm rear. Those measurements would be with an AE droop gauge. Korey is sleeping right now(or he's stumbling in from a frat party) but I'm sure he'll get you pointed in the right direction. You also don't have what you're running up front.....spool, oneway, diff?????
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Old 02-28-2009, 07:25 AM   #15453
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Hi Kory

One thing that is missing from your analysis is flow. One hole at 2.84 will flow more than two or three at the same area.

Two holes at 2.26 could flow a very similar amount to three at 2.84, I don't know the math just the theory.

The three hole would also have more surface area in the bore of the holes to create drag.

Then there the idea of hitting max flow with shock acceleration and the pressure wave it creates back through the oil.

Not saying that any of the data you presented is off in it's effects on the car, just that there is more to the dynamics of how shock valving works than you presented.

Thanks, Will
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Old 02-28-2009, 07:34 AM   #15454
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I'd possibly got to 3mm ackerman instead of 2, possibly change the rear toe to 2 instead of 3, and if I'm reading the droop correctly I'd go with 6mm front and 5mm rear. Those measurements would be with an AE droop gauge. Korey is sleeping right now(or he's stumbling in from a frat party) but I'm sure he'll get you pointed in the right direction. You also don't have what you're running up front.....spool, oneway, diff?????

What would changing the droop do if you leave the ride height the same?

limit down travel of the inside wheels?
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Old 02-28-2009, 10:47 AM   #15455
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I am wanting to change my setup. At the moment i can drive the car very consistently. But I feel that the car is a bit TOO safe. Anyone got any ideas. I want to do some testing with differant setups to find the best one. I run rubber tyres on carpet with medium grip levels.
TOO safe makes it sound like the car is stable, but I'm not sure what changes you're looking for. Anyway, here are some more ideas:

If you're running on a smooth track, try a shorter front wheelbase. I run the stock setup on bumpy tracks but usually I bring it all the way back on smooth tracks. Besides putting more weight on the front and more steering, it also reduces your ackerman. I usually run that with a 4mm ackerman spacing for even less ackerman, which makes the car carve through corners better without the scrub-bite you get when running too much ackerman on med-high bite tracks.

If you're looking to rotate the car a little easier, go 5W lighter oil in the rear.
If you're looking for a bit more response, try a little less front inboard toe or move the bottom rear shock out (to the #2 hole on the new arms, all the way out to the original arms might be a bit much).
If you find the car flattens out mid corner too much instead of carving, try lowering the front roll center with 1.0 spacers under the front mounts instead of 1.5's. I go to 1.5 spacers all around on tigher or lower traction or bumpy tracks, but stick to 1.0's all around in general for rubber/carpet with stiffer springs.
Also, try a different body. I usually start with Mazdaspeed. The Mazda 6 is a little less agressive. For a bit more response, try the LTC-R. The R9R gives crazy response... I've not yet found a use for that one.

Hopefully some of those will work for you.
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Old 02-28-2009, 04:43 PM   #15456
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Hi Kory

One thing that is missing from your analysis is flow. One hole at 2.84 will flow more than two or three at the same area.

Two holes at 2.26 could flow a very similar amount to three at 2.84, I don't know the math just the theory.

The three hole would also have more surface area in the bore of the holes to create drag.

Then there the idea of hitting max flow with shock acceleration and the pressure wave it creates back through the oil.

Not saying that any of the data you presented is off in it's effects on the car, just that there is more to the dynamics of how shock valving works than you presented.

Thanks, Will
Oh trust me, that was sitting in the back of my head. I was aiming for something that wasnt so confusing. I did leave a few things out... I had to ponder on it a bit more.

Usually smaller holes tend to make it easier for the oil to go from laminar to turbulent flow, so it could pack up quicker. Even if a 2 hole piston and a 3 hole piston have the same overall cross sectional area, I think the 3 hole piston can pack up quicker like you said.... I think in our situation with the HB pistons, the 3 hole pistons still have more cross sectional area to the point where that overcomes the fact that a 3 hole piston can possibly pack up more.

So much thinking... the effects on the track are things I've compared a lot though, so I think those are pretty accurate. Any other input as to how the holes and stuff work would be cool. I really like discussions like this .

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Old 02-28-2009, 04:55 PM   #15457
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What would changing the droop do if you leave the ride height the same?

limit down travel of the inside wheels?
It basically reduces weight transfer around the car. Usually in lower grip, bumpy condiditions I tend to run more. On smoother tracks with more grip, you can usually run a little less and it prevents the car from feeling all "floppy" through the corners.

Personally, I use it to adjust weight transfer front to rear more than anything. If you want more on power steering, you can reduce the amount of droop (amount the car lifts up from ride height). It just prevents weight from being transfered to tbe back on power, thus more on power steering, and a tiny bit less on entry. If you want a little less on power steering, then loosen you droop screws a bit. It will also give the car slightly more steering right on corner entry. If looking for anything dealing with on power balance, I start messing with droop first.

Same concept applies for the rear. If you loosen your droop screws in the rear, it will allow more weight to transfer to the front off power or on the brakes, making the car turn into the corner a little better, and have more rear grip in the middle and exit of the corner. Less droop (tighen droop screws) in the rear just does the opposite. It will reduce weight transfer to the front off power, and yeild less entry steering. The rear might rotate a little harder in the middle and exit of the corner as well. Anything for off power/braking balance, I play with the rear droop.

Hope that helps!!!

-Korey
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Old 02-28-2009, 05:01 PM   #15458
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Originally Posted by jonny123 View Post
I am wanting to change my setup. At the moment i can drive the car very consistently. But I feel that the car is a bit TOO safe. Anyone got any ideas. I want to do some testing with differant setups to find the best one. I run rubber tyres on carpet with medium grip levels.

How does the layout of the track look? The typical smooth and sweeping European style layout? If it's really tight and technical, you can always try shortening your camber links a touch. That will make the car feel more "direct" and locked in when making inputs. The car becomes really reactive.

I would also try adding more ackerman shims. I've run less than 4 is the grip is really high a few times to smooth out the car in the middle of the corner, but it always seems I like 4mm the best. It's more of a personal prefrence thing though. I'd play with it a little more and see what you like.

You look to have a lot of shims under your camber links. You can go down to 2-2.5mm in the front. That will smooth out entry just a tick, but make the front end generate more grip in the middle and exit of the corner.

Dropping 5wt on the rear oil is a good suggestion as well. It will help weight transfer to the front a little quicker. Dont be afraid to drop to 2.5deg of rear toe. It looks as thought you are running a 13.5 spec motor, so it could help free up the back end of the car a tiny bit.

-Korey
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:02 AM   #15459
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Thanks for the great reply's guys.

Ackerman: i used to always run 4mm ackerman but when i switched to the xray front hubs i was told to run 2mm to get the same feel as the standard hb hubs. But i have been told that the xray hubs are exactly the same as the hb ones if you use the the front hole on the hubs. So shall i put 4mm ackerman back on and then use the front holes on the hubs ??

I am running a spool at the front.

I want the car to have alot more corner speed. I can hold a really good line through the corners but have to go slower. So i NEED more corner speed.

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Old 03-01-2009, 06:06 PM   #15460
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Can some one please explain how to properly set up sway bars? Some say that the sawy bars have to be loose enough so it can move laterally freely for them to work right. others say it has be set so that it doesnt move at all right to left, but it can move up and down. What;s the deal?
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Old 03-01-2009, 07:19 PM   #15461
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I dont mean to be negative or a downer;;

but I bought the cyclone TC around christmas and it is the most delicate car I have Ever driven. I can't even go out and practice without an a arm or knuckle shattering, I think the part quality is CRAP.

Are there any upgraded or hardened A arms for this car, I know there are aluminum knuckles if you can find them what a disappointment
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Old 03-01-2009, 07:53 PM   #15462
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Can some one please explain how to properly set up sway bars? Some say that the sawy bars have to be loose enough so it can move laterally freely for them to work right. others say it has be set so that it doesnt move at all right to left, but it can move up and down. What;s the deal?
Tighten the set screws in the holders down just enough so it keeps the sway bar in place without any slop or left to right movement. The bar should still rotate freely when tightened in place. This will allow the sway bar to flex freely while on the track.
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:05 PM   #15463
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I dont mean to be negative or a downer;;

but I bought the cyclone TC around christmas and it is the most delicate car I have Ever driven. I can't even go out and practice without an a arm or knuckle shattering, I think the part quality is CRAP.

Are there any upgraded or hardened A arms for this car, I know there are aluminum knuckles if you can find them what a disappointment
I know my opinion may seem bias, but I haven't had any more problems with my cyclone compared to other cars I've run in the past. I've run several different kinds of xray, and corally platforms, and they all break or wear out about the same amount of parts. With the xrays it was always steering knuckles and rear hubs. The corally I went though diff parts and arms like no tomorrow.

Are you running any added aluminum pieces? Sometimes those hurt more than help.

-Korey
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Old 03-01-2009, 11:12 PM   #15464
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Originally Posted by TJames987 View Post
I dont mean to be negative or a downer;;

but I bought the cyclone TC around christmas and it is the most delicate car I have Ever driven. I can't even go out and practice without an a arm or knuckle shattering, I think the part quality is CRAP.

Are there any upgraded or hardened A arms for this car, I know there are aluminum knuckles if you can find them what a disappointment
I bought mine used and raced it once with a 13.5 before taking it to work on a runway with 4.5 and after doing several 59 mph runs on radar ( just to make sure I was out of gear) I ripped a set of rubber tires off it doing 20 to 30 mph four wheel drifts. I hit the little cones we use a couple of times and jumped it into the air.

After all that I have yet to break a single part and would rate the cyclone very durable.
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Old 03-02-2009, 04:30 AM   #15465
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TJAMES,i race at the same places you race and YES the front end of the car is very delicate!! Even at the point of brushing up against a board the car will break just like that.

The complaints of cars breaking is also determined by the type of track and conditions we race on. We race on high bite high speed indoor carpet and high bite asphalt tracks, with boards that dont move. Most other racers are running the car run on wide open tracks, parking lots, outside asphalt. Also with the colder weather, we thought the higher graphite was too brittle. Indoor temp as cold as 60 degrees. I have been running the car for almost a year, and never had as much breakage with this car until we went indoors and with the colder conditions.

As a fix for broken steering knuckles, we went to aluminum steering knuckles, and it really helped a lot. I understand aluminum is the way not the way to go, but we had to FINISH RACES. I recommend purchasing "JET" brand steering knuckles, they are a direct replacement. I recommend NOT purchasing the 3 RACING which is not the same material, softer and the linkages are not the same when installed.

The other option was to install the Pro4 front arms, softer material, some were made out of nylon which were more black in color than the gray color of the TC arms. But you wont have the optional shock positions(which i dont use anyways). And the sway bar hardware must be the older stuff, the stud on the old arms are fatter and will bind the new TC swaybar ball cups.

With a lot of track time, I was able to qualify 8th at the Northeast Grand Slam Race at MiMIs and finished 7th overall!!! The only HB cyclone in the A-main, a buddy just missed it by a few tenths. Thats a lot of track time to get the car right.

We will be at the Coliseaum soon for asphalt and we will see how it does.

LMK if i can be of help.
Arvin
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