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Old 02-27-2009, 10:38 AM   #15436
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Thank you Jesus!
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Originally Posted by Korey Harbke View Post
Hello Everyone,

Hiro Kasuya from Hot Bodies USA R&D asked me to post this up for everyone to see. Hot Bodies has been working on developing improved driveshafts with greater efficiency. When installed on the front of the car, they will reduce the common "chatter" we experience when using a spool or turning at extreme angles. Testing has shown that they also provide a little more steering overall!!! Release date is to be announced, so stay tuned!

-Korey
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Old 02-27-2009, 10:46 AM   #15437
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I always thought about less sweep make more mid corner ( using 1 or less then 2.5 degree FF block ),please correct me if I'm wrong.
Is more sweep means using less then 2.5 degree in the FF block? Thanks!
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:12 AM   #15438
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Originally Posted by Hi-LowBlow View Post
I have been running them for quite a while and they still work great. I do clean them up and add some grease once in a while but that's it. As for the durability, I would say they have pretty much the same durablity as the regular universal/cvd shafts. I didn't break any DCJ Shafts but i'm way too far from Hara's level I think i'm good enough for durability testing for you guys.

Thanks,
Hiro, you don't know durability testing b/c you drive way too clean..... give it to me. im IMFAMOUS as a durability tester.

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Old 02-27-2009, 11:35 AM   #15439
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Is more sweep means using less then 2.5 degree in the FF block? Thanks!
3.0 would be max arm sweep and 0 would be zero arm sweep.

I've used the 0 block up front running rubber/carpet. It made the corner feel two-stage and non-linear. Car would have this initial dartyness going in then would understeer throughout the corner. Really difficult to drive. The added arm sweep of the 1.5 block smoothed out response throughout the entire corner. On asphalt all I run is the 2.5 up front.

An added benefit of more arm sweep is less chatter. The increased angle of the arm actually decreases the angle on the CVD while cornering.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:20 PM   #15440
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Originally Posted by Korey Harbke View Post
The setup doesn't look too bad so far. The common trend with Hara and Andy are to run lighter springs and fairly heavy oil, which is similar to what you have. How many shims are you running under the suspension blocks? Those can help with the overall balance of the car depending on how you use them. You could also play with arm sweep (front toe block). The more sweep you have, the more mid corner steering you'll notice.

Since your "basic" package is all in the ballpark, it's all about playing with little things around the car. If you post a full detailed setup, and maybe what you feel is lacking, we would be able to help you a little better.

-Korey
Thank you very much Korey

Usually i run 2.5mm shim in the front and 2mm in the back.

Actually i havent haven't finished building the TC, let a lone try it. I was asking just to get a general ideia about a base setup to work with.
I will try using my base setup, but with 2 holes shock piston and 60W/50W (F/R) oil. Or do you think that would be to much?

I have used 2.5 and 1.5 arm sweep in the past, but usually i end up with 0, because the car seems easier on the chicanes.
But i will give it a shot with the TC.

Thanks!
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:43 PM   #15441
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Originally Posted by Itchy View Post
Thank you very much Korey

Usually i run 2.5mm shim in the front and 2mm in the back.

Actually i havent haven't finished building the TC, let a lone try it. I was asking just to get a general ideia about a base setup to work with.
I will try using my base setup, but with 2 holes shock piston and 60W/50W (F/R) oil. Or do you think that would be to much?

I have used 2.5 and 1.5 arm sweep in the past, but usually i end up with 0, because the car seems easier on the chicanes.
But i will give it a shot with the TC.

Thanks!
I would stay with the 3 hole pistons. I haven't found many conditions where I liked the stock pistons better. Anything on rubber tires I've preferred the 1.1mm 3 hole pistons.

Now just to clarify about your shims... are those under the camber link? Or under the suspension/toe blocks? That seems to be a little much if it's under the suspension blocks. If it's under the camber links then that seems about right.

-Korey
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:45 PM   #15442
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Originally Posted by ShaunMac View Post
3.0 would be max arm sweep and 0 would be zero arm sweep.

I've used the 0 block up front running rubber/carpet. It made the corner feel two-stage and non-linear. Car would have this initial dartyness going in then would understeer throughout the corner. Really difficult to drive. The added arm sweep of the 1.5 block smoothed out response throughout the entire corner. On asphalt all I run is the 2.5 up front.

An added benefit of more arm sweep is less chatter. The increased angle of the arm actually decreases the angle on the CVD while cornering.
Very much agree. The only time I run 0 deg of sweep is on carpet with foam tires. It keeps the front end from screwing itself into the ground LMAO.

-Korey
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Old 02-27-2009, 04:10 PM   #15443
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Originally Posted by Korey Harbke View Post
I would stay with the 3 hole pistons. I haven't found many conditions where I liked the stock pistons better. Anything on rubber tires I've preferred the 1.1mm 3 hole pistons.

-Korey
I've never tried the 3 hole pistons. Everytime I would place a parts order they would be out of stock. So I just gave up and ran the stock 1.2mm 2 hole pistons.

What kind of difference did you feel running the 3 hole compared to the 2 hole?
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:01 PM   #15444
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Originally Posted by Korey Harbke View Post
I would stay with the 3 hole pistons. I haven't found many conditions where I liked the stock pistons better. Anything on rubber tires I've preferred the 1.1mm 3 hole pistons.

Now just to clarify about your shims... are those under the camber link? Or under the suspension/toe blocks? That seems to be a little much if it's under the suspension blocks. If it's under the camber links then that seems about right.

-Korey
Sorry for not being clear, english is not my native language. I was speaking about the shims under the camber link. Under the suspension block i almost always use 1.5mm.

I will try the 3 hole piston then.

Thanks!
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:28 PM   #15445
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3.0 would be max arm sweep and 0 would be zero arm sweep.

I've used the 0 block up front running rubber/carpet. It made the corner feel two-stage and non-linear. Car would have this initial dartyness going in then would understeer throughout the corner. Really difficult to drive. The added arm sweep of the 1.5 block smoothed out response throughout the entire corner. On asphalt all I run is the 2.5 up front.

An added benefit of more arm sweep is less chatter. The increased angle of the arm actually decreases the angle on the CVD while cornering.
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Originally Posted by Korey Harbke View Post
Very much agree. The only time I run 0 deg of sweep is on carpet with foam tires. It keeps the front end from screwing itself into the ground LMAO.

-Korey
Korey and ShaunMac,

May be you guys want to try softer overall suspension with less inboard angle. Generally it seems like that more sweep angle works like softer suspension especially at initial.[You can also feel like less initial turn-in] So I usually put a little stiffer springs or less camber link angle [more/thicker shims under the inner camber link] when i run more sweep angle, and go softer or more camber link angle [more camber gain] with less sweep angle.

Also, more sweep angle makes it like progressive caster angle action. If you have 4 degrees caster blocks on your car, it feels like start with 4deg and then going less caster when the car is turning. So you should feel the car carries more corner speed with more arm sweep.

yes it always depends upon the track condition, but generally on the high bite track, more sweep angle makes more overall steering.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:46 PM   #15446
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Originally Posted by Scott B View Post
I'll be there again this year since Speedworld is my local track...

And I think Hiro and Korey as well as others will be there...
I am planning on going also. Don't forget about the So cal warm up race also.

http://www.roadrunnersrc.com/?page_id=270

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Old 02-27-2009, 10:25 PM   #15447
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Originally Posted by Hi-LowBlow View Post
Korey and ShaunMac,

May be you guys want to try softer overall suspension with less inboard angle. Generally it seems like that more sweep angle works like softer suspension especially at initial.[You can also feel like less initial turn-in] So I usually put a little stiffer springs or less camber link angle [more/thicker shims under the inner camber link] when i run more sweep angle, and go softer or more camber link angle [more camber gain] with less sweep angle.

Also, more sweep angle makes it like progressive caster angle action. If you have 4 degrees caster blocks on your car, it feels like start with 4deg and then going less caster when the car is turning. So you should feel the car carries more corner speed with more arm sweep.

yes it always depends upon the track condition, but generally on the high bite track, more sweep angle makes more overall steering.
Thats what I have found overall. The arm sweep when running on foam tires is a very touchy thing on the cyclone. .5 deg makes a huge difference, and most of the time I've found 0 deg of arm sweep is best since the traction is typically pretty high. It just keeps the front end from digging into the ground so hard in the middle of the corner. When I use a stiffer spring to combat the effect of arm sweep the car actually transfers to much weight directly to the tire initially, so the car starts to lift up in the corners. That usually kills any forward drive/corner speed that I have and REALLY puts a strain on the diffs.

On rubber tires... I typially run anywhere between 1-2 deg of arm sweep. It smooths the car out initially, and makes the front end stay hooked up better through the corner. Usually I'll add a shim under the camber link or stand the shock up a hole in addition to keep it a little flatter through the corner.

-Korey
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Old 02-27-2009, 10:27 PM   #15448
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Sorry for not being clear, english is not my native language. I was speaking about the shims under the camber link. Under the suspension block i almost always use 1.5mm.

I will try the 3 hole piston then.

Thanks!
Awesome. The setup looks pretty solid for the most part. Just make small changes to fit your conditions and driving style. Setup from the Older cyclones to the TC are very similar. All the basic suspension geometry is the same, you just have more options!

-Korey
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Old 02-28-2009, 12:38 AM   #15449
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I'll try and give a pretty detailed explaination... I have been curious as to find a way to explain why the pistons work the way they do. I didnt really quite understand it untill I learned more about fluid dynamics in physics class last week LMAO. This will help me review a bit for my test as well.

It's all about when the shock oil molecules change from laminar (smooth) flow, to turbulent (not so smooth) flow. When the shock moves at a slower speed, the oil flowing through the piston holes and the outside edge of the piston is fairly laminar. This means the fluid is flowing is fairly straight streams of oil and the molecules arent hitting each other in so many random directions.

Then there is a point where if the shock piston travels fast enough, oil's flow goes from laminar to turbulent. When the flow is turbulent, it "packs" up because it's harder for all the oil molecules to pass through the holes when they aren't in uniform lines. Think of it as a bunch of crazy after thanksgiving shoppers trying to get through a mall door

So the piston has a BIG effect on how easily the oil goes from laminar flow, to turbulent flow. A simple, and very general way to compare pistons is to take the area of the holes in the piston.

So if you have a piston with 3, 1.1mm holes:

3.14 * (1.1mm/2)^2 = .94 square mm, the cross sectional area of one hole

then multiply it by 3 to get the total area of about 2.84 square mm

Compare to a piston with 2, 1.2mm holes:

3.14 * (1.2mm/2)^2 = 1.13 square mm for one hole

then multiply by 2 to get the total area of about 2.26 square mm


Alright... So as we can see, the 1.2mm 2 hole piston has less area for the oil to pass through. This would make it easier for the oil flow to be turbulent when the rate of which the pistons moves gets faster. This is why it packs up more than a 3 hole, 1.1mm piston. Thats pretty intuitive, but now you guys know all to cool freakness behind it haha.

Anyway, the 1.1mm 3 hole pistons have less pack. With a thicker oil, they have the same slow speed dampening feel, but they pack up less when you REALLY throw the car into the corner (moving the shock piston quickly). I feel in most conditions it gives a little more grip, and seems more balanced throughout the entire corner.

The 1.2mm 2 hole pistons combined with a slightly thinner oil will have similar slow speed feel, but when you start moving weight around the car quickly, it packs up really quick and prevents the car from rolling. This can reduce traction a bit, and make the car a little inconsistent in low grip conditions.

When the grip is REALLY high, as in foam tire carpet racing, sometimes the effects can be different. More pack sometimes creates more grip, while less pack creates less grip. I think it's mainly because there is so much available traction, it just pushes the tires into the ground harder, rather than rolling. Thus... it develops more grip with more pack, and less when the car is allows to roll.

I hope that wasnt to confusing for everyone, but I figured it might be kind of cool to know the reasoning behind what we feel on the track.

-Korey
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Old 02-28-2009, 01:10 AM   #15450
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Default Shock pistons

Thanks korey Great description
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