USVTA Woes
06-07-2012, 07:57 PM
#76
There are countless situations in various forms of racing (all scales, real or r/c) where ONE manufacturer has a monopoly. Sometimes they pay for that right, sometimes not - and everybody manages just fine in the end.
06-07-2012, 08:02 PM
#77
Wouldn't it be nice if Tekin made a new non-programmable spec ESC that is smaller / lighter than the RS or Novak Edge, just as efficient, great brakes and sold for about $80. Now that would be Free Enterprise!
Nobody told Novak to cater to this class, they just did.
P.S. I've been on the fence all day watching this thread develop and it's been a pretty entertaining read. All these impassioned pleas to win the hearts and minds of the VTA faithful over to "my way of thinking" is great. It really shows some love for this class. But I also noticed that many of these long winded posts were made during working hours. Which raises the question, don't you people have jobs?
Nobody told Novak to cater to this class, they just did.
P.S. I've been on the fence all day watching this thread develop and it's been a pretty entertaining read. All these impassioned pleas to win the hearts and minds of the VTA faithful over to "my way of thinking" is great. It really shows some love for this class. But I also noticed that many of these long winded posts were made during working hours. Which raises the question, don't you people have jobs?
06-07-2012, 08:06 PM
#78
There has never, will never be anything simple about spec class racing. If you reduce the choices on motor,esc,batteries and tires; whats left?.....the chassis. So now we have alienated the new comers who can't afford that new $400+ chassis that the 'fast' guy at his local track is stomping everyone with.
06-07-2012, 08:08 PM
#79
I just want to take this minute and thank everyone who has particapted in DE-RAILING this thread with converstions about set-ups and taking jabs at each others comprehesion levels.......truly appreciated!!!!
The whole point of this thread was to discuss the current rule set about speed controls and motors. Now I understand how a conversation of this nature is baffling to those who believe in the theory of "if it ain't broke; don't fix it". But from what I've seen here so far; this line of stagnant thaught processes will kill the class before it has a chance to fully flourish; which is the sad part. This class has the potential to be just as popular and respected as all other forms of touring car racing. But it will never happen if things don't change. I'm not looking for an overnight revamping on the rule set; only to inspire creative thinking.
With that said I emplore you to take your discussions about your set-ups that so far have been great articles of advice and repost them in the thread where they belong.....and NOT HERE.
The whole point of this thread was to discuss the current rule set about speed controls and motors. Now I understand how a conversation of this nature is baffling to those who believe in the theory of "if it ain't broke; don't fix it". But from what I've seen here so far; this line of stagnant thaught processes will kill the class before it has a chance to fully flourish; which is the sad part. This class has the potential to be just as popular and respected as all other forms of touring car racing. But it will never happen if things don't change. I'm not looking for an overnight revamping on the rule set; only to inspire creative thinking.
With that said I emplore you to take your discussions about your set-ups that so far have been great articles of advice and repost them in the thread where they belong.....and NOT HERE.
Really here's what you need to do.
Go to your track owner and tell him to run ROAR vta rules so you will be happy. It's that simple.
This class has been here since 2007 -2008. There are a lot of people who tried a lot of stuff. We went from brushed to brushless from nimh to lipo...and made it through the boost thing. This was not pulled from thin air.
Yet, now that the rules are stable and I'm trying to keep them that way, there's all kinds of calls to change things. A year ago, there were posts like "oh, yeah vta, they keep changing the rules"...AARRGGHHH
If you think you can do it better, you are free to try your ideas at your track. They have a completely different thing going in Minnesota and it seems to suit them.
I'm tired of being second guessed at every turn. It's hard to know if this is working for anyone, since all I see is people who complain they can't do exactly as they damn well please. Yet I see guys having a good time locally, and when I go to races where there is vta, it seems to be working out.
06-07-2012, 08:10 PM
#80
After I blew up my 2nd Novak XBR speed control, I switched to Dean's connectors where I cannot reverse the polarity. On batteries that had bullet connectors, I marked the positive side with red tape. I also made sure that the bullet connectors from the battery to a deans plug had red/black wires. I also left the connector in the battery. After following these steps, I have not had a single problem with a Novak speed control.
Does it suck that some Novak speed controls aren't as fool-proof as other manufacturers, YES. But is that really a problem with USVTA? No. The only thing we can do as a class is post suggestions about how to protect "fragile" electronics. But USVTA can't protect individuals from making mistakes, nor should we try.
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I never see people stating that they expressed complaints to Novak about the quality of their products, which is were the critisms should go. I never see people asking anyone involved with USVTA rules to contact Novak about the quality of their product, which might be constructive. I never see people stating that they contacted xyz speed control manufacture about their lack of a speed control that would work in a class like VTA, which might be helpful.
Instead we get posts of this or that sucks about VTA and we should open up the national rules to make it better. The real answer is to work with your local track and/or racers to make exceptions that work for your group. Open up local rules to see if it improves turn-outs or racing. There is nothing wrong with an "outlaw" VTA class if it works best for your group. Maybe in your efforts to improve your local racing you might even find something that can be adopted into the national rules. This is no different than Myron testing a Novak 1/18 scale speed control and finding that it worked fine in VTA - and it was adopted into the rules.
Does it suck that some Novak speed controls aren't as fool-proof as other manufacturers, YES. But is that really a problem with USVTA? No. The only thing we can do as a class is post suggestions about how to protect "fragile" electronics. But USVTA can't protect individuals from making mistakes, nor should we try.
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I never see people stating that they expressed complaints to Novak about the quality of their products, which is were the critisms should go. I never see people asking anyone involved with USVTA rules to contact Novak about the quality of their product, which might be constructive. I never see people stating that they contacted xyz speed control manufacture about their lack of a speed control that would work in a class like VTA, which might be helpful.
Instead we get posts of this or that sucks about VTA and we should open up the national rules to make it better. The real answer is to work with your local track and/or racers to make exceptions that work for your group. Open up local rules to see if it improves turn-outs or racing. There is nothing wrong with an "outlaw" VTA class if it works best for your group. Maybe in your efforts to improve your local racing you might even find something that can be adopted into the national rules. This is no different than Myron testing a Novak 1/18 scale speed control and finding that it worked fine in VTA - and it was adopted into the rules.
06-07-2012, 08:13 PM
#83
P.S. I've been on the fence all day watching this thread develop and it's been a pretty entertaining read. All these impassioned pleas to win the hearts and minds of the VTA faithful over to "my way of thinking" is great. It really shows some love for this class. But I also noticed that many of these long winded posts were made during working hours. Which raises the question, don't you people have jobs?
The scary part would probably be how many people are posting from work. Being on the other end of that, our software at work lets me track all the websites visited by my employees on our work PC's. You'd be amazed at what people will look at and/or do at work.
Back to the "the clearly posted rules for a voluntary HOBBY don't fit MY idea of what's right, so therefore they're wrong" discussion...
06-07-2012, 08:14 PM
#84
The same would happen with any blinky profile esc and a spec motor.
06-07-2012, 08:15 PM
#85
There has never, will never be anything simple about spec class racing. If you reduce the choices on motor,esc,batteries and tires; whats left?.....the chassis. So now we have alienated the new comers who can't afford that new $400+ chassis that the 'fast' guy at his local track is stomping everyone with.
06-07-2012, 08:21 PM
#86
The benefit in allowing/updating the current rule set on esc's lays in the premise of new participants. As mentioned previously; a new racer who does not prefer a Novak but already has an esc that was designed specifically for spec class racing. By keeping the rules the same because it benefits some; you (not directly you) alienate and essentially stunt growth. I as well as you have our personal beliefs on what works best for us; or what we have grown as racers with. Personally from what I have seen as this class has grown is that other esc's were "approved" to give the appearance of equality; but as technology progressed only Novak's equipment was upgraded and all the other "approved" esc's were disregarded. Just look at the list and chart the trend. About a month or so ago I posted a question if the new LRP SPX zero would be considered for USVTA approval. The response I was given was that "it bares too close of a resemblance to the standard SPX and that if someone wanted to; they could swap cases between the two esc's. Now please keep in mind this was dirctly after my 6th and final Novak esc had decided to go nuclear while inside my car with the power switch in the OFF position. At which point I decided that I was no longer going to race VTA until the rules changed. However I have found that I miss running VTA; but what I miss even more is the $600+ that I wasted on esc's and the time that I was not able to drive my car because i was waiting for warranty returns. On a side note; one would tend to think that a company that is gearing it's products for entry level racers might include a simple feature like reverse polarity protection ie. LRP and Tekin. Although I understand why an RS should not be approved for this class. And back to the nefarious types. What would stop someone from pulling the "GTB 2" sticker off the side of that esc and re-applying it an actual Kintic esc from which the GTB 2 cases was re-sourced? One last point on this very long winded rant: I currently race in the USGT class. In my car I have an LRP SPX Zero and a matching LRP X11 21.5 motor; a friend and close competitor of mine is using a Novak GTB 2x with a revtek 21.5 and we've proven that both set-ups are extremely close in overall performance. I just have ease of mind knowing that it's more likely that his will quit do to a random loss of magic smoke!!!
The LRP is not legal since it contains timing profiles. From the manual:
"The great „Boost 0“ mode, for true stock racing with equal power can easily be recognised when the red LED
flashes in neutral position in normal operation to indicate that entire timing advancement is disabled!!"
i don't care what the case looks like, it's the timing profiles.
06-07-2012, 08:25 PM
#87
I hope they will fill this area since there is apparently a huge dissatisfied lot of racers waiting to spend their money.
06-07-2012, 08:26 PM
#88
This class has been here since 2007 -2008. There are a lot of people who tried a lot of stuff. We went from brushed to brushless from nimh to lipo...and made it through the boost thing. This was not pulled from thin air.
Yet, now that the rules are stable and I'm trying to keep them that way, there's all kinds of calls to change things. A year ago, there were posts like "oh, yeah vta, they keep changing the rules"...AARRGGHHH
I'm tired of being second guessed at every turn. It's hard to know if this is working for anyone, since all I see is people who complain they can't do exactly as they damn well please. Yet I see guys having a good time locally, and when I go to races where there is vta, it seems to be working out.
Yet, now that the rules are stable and I'm trying to keep them that way, there's all kinds of calls to change things. A year ago, there were posts like "oh, yeah vta, they keep changing the rules"...AARRGGHHH
I'm tired of being second guessed at every turn. It's hard to know if this is working for anyone, since all I see is people who complain they can't do exactly as they damn well please. Yet I see guys having a good time locally, and when I go to races where there is vta, it seems to be working out.
06-07-2012, 08:33 PM
#89
Tech Adept
iTrader: (3)
Hi,
I live in Australia and we have had similar problems with any of the spec classes we run. We currently race (in some states) 17.5 boosted and have found some drivers walk away from the HOBBY (remember this is all it is!) due to not having the latest motor / esc / battery / chassis etc and struggling to keep up. Granted some drivers are good enough that even with some older equipment they can still win races but they are the minority.
At my small club we created our own entry level class to try give people a cheaper and FAIRER racing category. I did a bit of research and came up with the following:
Control chassis (3 Racing Sakura Zero S) - about $100
Hobbywing 17.5 motor (fixed timing) & Justock (no turbo/boost)esc - $100 combo
Control battery - $25
Control body (HPI 190mm Porsche 911) - $30
Bling rims - no dish rims. Need to keep some realism! - $5
Fixed gearing!
No hop ups - car is built as kit.
So after you add servo, tires, paint, tx/rx you are probably up and running for less than $400. Compare this to my S411 with 4PK controller, Tekin RS Pro, $130 lipo etc etc and its certainly qualifies as an entry level class.
As you can see we went FURTHER than your rules and our club LOVES it. A normal race day for us might have 4-7 people running stock (17.5 boosted) and 10-15 people running the Sakura. Everyone has the same speed, the same aero, the same weight, the same handling characteristics. The only way you win is through better driving - and this is how ANY class should be won, not with the size of your wallet.
IMO if you are going to have a control class (especially if you are going to pitch it as an entry level class) it needs to be fully controlled. It may mean extra scrutineering but it prevents the "I would have won but he/she has a better (insert equipment of choice here)..."
Anyway good luck with finding a happy medium
Ulimately you wont please every driver however hopefully they can find a class that does suit their budget, rule structure and enjoyment level. I dont race open/modified because I dont think I would enjoy it... thats my choice to make and not the fault of the class/rules.
Have fun racing!
Simon
I live in Australia and we have had similar problems with any of the spec classes we run. We currently race (in some states) 17.5 boosted and have found some drivers walk away from the HOBBY (remember this is all it is!) due to not having the latest motor / esc / battery / chassis etc and struggling to keep up. Granted some drivers are good enough that even with some older equipment they can still win races but they are the minority.
At my small club we created our own entry level class to try give people a cheaper and FAIRER racing category. I did a bit of research and came up with the following:
Control chassis (3 Racing Sakura Zero S) - about $100
Hobbywing 17.5 motor (fixed timing) & Justock (no turbo/boost)esc - $100 combo
Control battery - $25
Control body (HPI 190mm Porsche 911) - $30
Bling rims - no dish rims. Need to keep some realism! - $5
Fixed gearing!
No hop ups - car is built as kit.
So after you add servo, tires, paint, tx/rx you are probably up and running for less than $400. Compare this to my S411 with 4PK controller, Tekin RS Pro, $130 lipo etc etc and its certainly qualifies as an entry level class.
As you can see we went FURTHER than your rules and our club LOVES it. A normal race day for us might have 4-7 people running stock (17.5 boosted) and 10-15 people running the Sakura. Everyone has the same speed, the same aero, the same weight, the same handling characteristics. The only way you win is through better driving - and this is how ANY class should be won, not with the size of your wallet.
IMO if you are going to have a control class (especially if you are going to pitch it as an entry level class) it needs to be fully controlled. It may mean extra scrutineering but it prevents the "I would have won but he/she has a better (insert equipment of choice here)..."
Anyway good luck with finding a happy medium
Ulimately you wont please every driver however hopefully they can find a class that does suit their budget, rule structure and enjoyment level. I dont race open/modified because I dont think I would enjoy it... thats my choice to make and not the fault of the class/rules.Have fun racing!
Simon
06-07-2012, 08:42 PM
#90
