Formulae of Stock Racing
01-26-2005, 10:12 PM
#1
Formulae of Stock Racing
The last couple big topics in here got me thinking about electric racing, more specifically the stock classes.
The current state of racing electric R/C cars allows us to adjust both the speed and handling of our vehicles.
In an effort to make racing even closer, would you agree to run a class in which the acceleration and speed was a set, unalterable value?
Equal speed was likely the main premise behind the "stock motor" classes, but many variables add up to prevent equal power output in the current formulae.
Would you be more, or less excited to hit the track, knowing full well that power production would not be a variable?
The current state of racing electric R/C cars allows us to adjust both the speed and handling of our vehicles.
In an effort to make racing even closer, would you agree to run a class in which the acceleration and speed was a set, unalterable value?
Equal speed was likely the main premise behind the "stock motor" classes, but many variables add up to prevent equal power output in the current formulae.
Would you be more, or less excited to hit the track, knowing full well that power production would not be a variable?
01-26-2005, 10:30 PM
#3
Tech Master
The problem then becomes a battery war, whoever can get the best batteries will get the most power in the end. Stock motors IMHO have enough restrictions, that a slightly faster or more powerful motor will win you the race. A better driver will still win. Tuning your car and equipment is part of racing.
01-26-2005, 10:44 PM
#4
Yeah, I agree with micros_rock, if everyone ran the same motor, car, batteries, body and everything the same, it wouldn't be any fun. But this is why there are spec classes now.
01-27-2005, 12:08 AM
#5
The problem with the stock classes - everywhere in the world - is CHEATING.
You have a 27 turn class and a 19 turn class, but how many times do you hear of guys running 17, 16 and even 12 turn armatures in a 19 turn can. And before you say it, I know most armature ends are different and recognisable, but how many times are the cars scrutineered that closely.
There are 2 solutions in my opinion.
1. Hand out motors. Costly and impractical at club level.
2. Three classes as we know them now (we presently have 27 turn stock, 19 turn super stock and open modified). All these are allowed to run any motor they please, but the class sub devisions are regulated by battery cells. So you have a 4 cell class - equivalent to your 27 turn in performance, a 5 cell class - equivalent to 19 turn, and a 6 cell class - which is the same as we have at present.
Cheating ? What cheating ? Anybody can see that a car is running 4 cells, or 5 cells, depending on the class. ALL THE SCRUTINEER NEEDS DO IS TAKE A WALK UP THE GRID, JUST BEFORE THE START.
What do you guys think ?
You have a 27 turn class and a 19 turn class, but how many times do you hear of guys running 17, 16 and even 12 turn armatures in a 19 turn can. And before you say it, I know most armature ends are different and recognisable, but how many times are the cars scrutineered that closely.
There are 2 solutions in my opinion.
1. Hand out motors. Costly and impractical at club level.
2. Three classes as we know them now (we presently have 27 turn stock, 19 turn super stock and open modified). All these are allowed to run any motor they please, but the class sub devisions are regulated by battery cells. So you have a 4 cell class - equivalent to your 27 turn in performance, a 5 cell class - equivalent to 19 turn, and a 6 cell class - which is the same as we have at present.
Cheating ? What cheating ? Anybody can see that a car is running 4 cells, or 5 cells, depending on the class. ALL THE SCRUTINEER NEEDS DO IS TAKE A WALK UP THE GRID, JUST BEFORE THE START.
What do you guys think ?
01-27-2005, 01:17 AM
#6
Tech Addict
races
Long ago, back when I raced off-road, some big events would have sportsman handout type classes. and the price would be reasonable.
where a normal entry would be 35 bucks this sportsman class would be 45 bucks, and for the 10 bucks you could get,
1 hand out motor
a full set of hand out tires
and 1 handout battery (you would have to return), you had to use for all the qualifliers and the main, seems harsh, but it was fast and fun.
basically the race comes down to your driving skill and your tuning ability of your car. and tune the hand out stock motor.
probably the best racing I have ever been a part of in my life, I participated at events like this 2 times both were the best time I had probably ever had racing
by the way if you have a cheater motor, what does it matter if we have cell restrictions?
where a normal entry would be 35 bucks this sportsman class would be 45 bucks, and for the 10 bucks you could get,
1 hand out motor
a full set of hand out tires
and 1 handout battery (you would have to return), you had to use for all the qualifliers and the main, seems harsh, but it was fast and fun.
basically the race comes down to your driving skill and your tuning ability of your car. and tune the hand out stock motor.
probably the best racing I have ever been a part of in my life, I participated at events like this 2 times both were the best time I had probably ever had racing
by the way if you have a cheater motor, what does it matter if we have cell restrictions?
01-27-2005, 01:55 AM
#7
Another thing, honestly, there's NO way to completely equalize the amount of power that many motors produce(at least not without going through literally HUNDREDS of motors just to find a dozen or so), & even accomplishing that, those motors tend to change after EVERY run & after EVERY rebuild, so even if they start equal, they won't be for long at all. And then of course there are the batteries, & those are even more diverse in performance from one pack to another(especially if you use unmatched packs to avoid any cheating by a matcher), & the performance of those also change as they're used more. To say it'd be prohibitively expensive is something of an understatement. To be honest, I think the rules as they are may about as close to equal as we'll ever get for stocks, & there's still the factor of setting up & driving your car(which can account for MUCH of a driver's percieved speed, a car that corners faster has less accelerating to do on the straights, so they're usually faster going in & coming out of them, hence they seem to have more power whether they really do or not).....
01-27-2005, 03:37 AM
#8
Tech Master
How about this.....
Wether it be 540 stock or 27 or 19 turn stock if there is certain spec motor the event is restricted to (it doesn't need to be a hand out motor) not only do you hand it in at the end of the day but you randomly get a different one back the next day.
Well ok it might work best with 540 lol.
Well ok it might work best with 540 lol.
01-27-2005, 04:10 AM
#10
I know this doesn`t relate to R/C`s directly... but the ideas the same.
When I raced Slot Cars...in a 6hr endurance race what we did with regards to motors was...
1 : Before the race all our motors were handed in for scutinering & marked with paint.
2 : Spare Motors were kept & only given out/back either if one blew or at the end of race.
3 : The top place getters motors were then re- scrutinered to see if they had been tampered with.
Now this was at a major interstate event over a couple of days... So i don`t think this would work at your everyday meet.
Anyway thats my 2 cents worth
Cheers
When I raced Slot Cars...in a 6hr endurance race what we did with regards to motors was...
1 : Before the race all our motors were handed in for scutinering & marked with paint.
2 : Spare Motors were kept & only given out/back either if one blew or at the end of race.
3 : The top place getters motors were then re- scrutinered to see if they had been tampered with.
Now this was at a major interstate event over a couple of days... So i don`t think this would work at your everyday meet.
Anyway thats my 2 cents worth
Cheers
01-27-2005, 04:13 AM
#11
i think cheating is a BIG problem in ths sport BUT in club races who cares.. in big competitions they normaly get caught..i think the best way would be a "appeal" were withing 10 mins of the end of the racer u can put in a appeal on a car that seamed oddly fast os just suspect.. but u have to put a 20 dollar fee down.. then a TEAM not 1 scritneener checks out the car (which should have been impounded since the end of the race so the driver couldnt have changed it) if you are correct then the driver is disqualified and u get ur 20 bux bak if not they keep ur money and u leave feeling like a idiot and with 20 bux less.. this will stop guys appealing every race. but obvious cheating will be stopped.
01-27-2005, 05:00 AM
#12
The system of protests and appeals is what happens everywhere, but it is very time intensive for race officials.
We all seem to be in agreement that hand out motors are a good idea to reduce cheating, but there are the practical disadvantages, especially for small events.
Unfortunately, whatever you do, people will try and gain the unfair advantage - CHEAT, so what I am trying to propose is a system where cheating is easier to check.
If you have motor restrictions that means motors have to be examined, but what is easier than seeing that a car is running with 4, or 5, or 6 cells depending what class it is running in ?
So the suggestion is for free motors - any wind, but a reduction in input voltage by the use of 4, 5 or 6 cells.
And for the writer who mentioned cheating with cells, yes that's possible too. I know a guy who removes the labels from top quality cells just to pretend he is running cheap unmatched cells.
These guys call it sport, though I don't know what satisfaction anyone can get from knowing he has had to run bent equipment to win.
We all seem to be in agreement that hand out motors are a good idea to reduce cheating, but there are the practical disadvantages, especially for small events.
Unfortunately, whatever you do, people will try and gain the unfair advantage - CHEAT, so what I am trying to propose is a system where cheating is easier to check.
If you have motor restrictions that means motors have to be examined, but what is easier than seeing that a car is running with 4, or 5, or 6 cells depending what class it is running in ?
So the suggestion is for free motors - any wind, but a reduction in input voltage by the use of 4, 5 or 6 cells.
And for the writer who mentioned cheating with cells, yes that's possible too. I know a guy who removes the labels from top quality cells just to pretend he is running cheap unmatched cells.
These guys call it sport, though I don't know what satisfaction anyone can get from knowing he has had to run bent equipment to win.
01-27-2005, 06:22 AM
#13
at our track....
As far as motors go..if somebody is "suspected" of cheating..his/her motor can be purchased for $30 (I think) adn it is then tore-down...(Including unwound) This has only happend once in the past 3 years that I can think of.
Our track isn't very competitive, most just run-for-fun. We have a points series. Luckly, we have a good group of guys. When someone does "cheat" everybody knows it and it's usually done as an "expierement", so it's not considered cheating. We're pretty laid-back.
Our track isn't very competitive, most just run-for-fun. We have a points series. Luckly, we have a good group of guys. When someone does "cheat" everybody knows it and it's usually done as an "expierement", so it's not considered cheating. We're pretty laid-back.
01-27-2005, 06:33 AM
#14
Tech Elite
Re: races
Originally posted by TCR
Long ago, back when I raced off-road, some big events would have sportsman handout type classes. and the price would be reasonable.
where a normal entry would be 35 bucks this sportsman class would be 45 bucks, and for the 10 bucks you could get,
1 hand out motor
a full set of hand out tires
and 1 handout battery (you would have to return), you had to use for all the qualifliers and the main, seems harsh, but it was fast and fun.
basically the race comes down to your driving skill and your tuning ability of your car. and tune the hand out stock motor.
probably the best racing I have ever been a part of in my life, I participated at events like this 2 times both were the best time I had probably ever had racing
by the way if you have a cheater motor, what does it matter if we have cell restrictions?
Long ago, back when I raced off-road, some big events would have sportsman handout type classes. and the price would be reasonable.
where a normal entry would be 35 bucks this sportsman class would be 45 bucks, and for the 10 bucks you could get,
1 hand out motor
a full set of hand out tires
and 1 handout battery (you would have to return), you had to use for all the qualifliers and the main, seems harsh, but it was fast and fun.
basically the race comes down to your driving skill and your tuning ability of your car. and tune the hand out stock motor.
probably the best racing I have ever been a part of in my life, I participated at events like this 2 times both were the best time I had probably ever had racing
by the way if you have a cheater motor, what does it matter if we have cell restrictions?
01-27-2005, 10:33 AM
#15
Another thing used to help stop the cheating is to have the races become claiming races. I don't particularly like these, but they do have the effect of keeping the horsepower more even.
For those of you that don't know what a claiming race is, anyone in the race (at the conclusion) can buy any other racers motor for a preset price. This price is ususally 1.5-2 times the original cost of the motor. The motor tuners ususally hate these, but I have found that the good motor tuners can usually make plenty more good motors, and they don't usually run their best stuff for fear of having it claimed.
For those of you that don't know what a claiming race is, anyone in the race (at the conclusion) can buy any other racers motor for a preset price. This price is ususally 1.5-2 times the original cost of the motor. The motor tuners ususally hate these, but I have found that the good motor tuners can usually make plenty more good motors, and they don't usually run their best stuff for fear of having it claimed.