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Old 07-15-2012, 05:23 PM   #1336
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Hey guys. I've got a VTA question/problem that I'm looking for some help with. My local track started a VTA class about a year ago and it has taken off great. The problem that we are running into is that the cars are not equal in speed cause some motors are faster than others. We run on a small track and go by the official VTA rules with a FDR of 6.9 and most of the cars are very close in speed, but a select few can pass a car in the strait almost like they are standing still. At first we thought that it was just that the car had a better set up, or was cleaner, but we have set ours up the best we can and clean them after every race day, and that made it a bit better but still those select few can still pull away from the slower ones. It's starting to discourage people from racing because they want to be competitive, and spend a ton of time teching their cars but have no chance of winning.

Does anyone have any ideas or advice to help me with our problem? Feel free to PM me too if you don't want to post it on here. Thanks
We've run a FDR restriction at our track also. All that has been mentioned I can agree with but if someone is much faster on the straight it has almost always been timing or gear cheaters... usually both. Just comes from my experience at our track. We usually only fully tech the cars the first night of a series, with spot inspections for those that have extra speed on the straights.
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Old 07-15-2012, 05:32 PM   #1337
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... At first we thought that it was just that the car had a better set up, or was cleaner, but we have set ours up the best we can and clean them after every race day, and that made it a bit better but still those select few can still pull away from the slower ones.
Like I said earlier it is most likely that the guys who are passing the slower pack have the skill to cut the overall length of the track by 7 to 9 feet by hugging the turns and also enter/exit those turns at the optimal angle so that their VTA car barely decelerates throughout the whole track. To test this theory do like Pejota suggested and have everyone do a straight-line drag race down the longest straight section of your track.

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...It's starting to discourage people from racing because they want to be competitive, and spend a ton of time teching their cars but have no chance of winning.
These guys must realize that having a "perfect" technical set-up on their VTA is only half of what a racer needs to be competitive in VTA. The other half is getting tons of practice on the track driving their VTA. Basically if a guy has not put in at least 100 laps on the track with their car prior to the race, and they are up against somebody who has, then they have a "snowball's chance in hell" of winning against the practiced driver.

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Old 07-15-2012, 06:52 PM   #1338
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I'll bite...

Why is the FDR 6.9? Is the track that tiny and technical? Can you provide pics?

I've run on a 50x80 (give or take) outdoor track, fairly technical with lots of 180* degree turns and the lowest i ever went was 4.0 on my FDR.

Technically, the official USVTA rules don't specify a FDR. So while some cars/motors/ESCs will be equal in speeds at the same FDR, you always have that oddball setup that could run the same speeds with a slightly different FDR.

Another point, motor timing: are the faster cars running the same amount of motor timing as everyone else? The Ballistic motors are adjustable, the old SS motors are not. Once again, all things being equal, slight adjustments to motor timing might be the reason other people are faster.

Finally, as wwddww34 wrote, if some guys aren't carrying proper corner speed (pushing or sliding) they will be slower than the guys on the straights. Guys who have their cars dialed will be on the throttle earlier and seem faster down the straights. To prove or disprove this, have everyone drag race down a straight. If everyone is pretty much equal, then i'd bet the faster guys are accelerating harder out of the turns than the slower guys.
Yeah, our track is pretty small, but still an awesome time. It measures about 60x25 or so. There are always a lot of 180 degree turns. We have a FDR to keep the speeds down and the racing a little closer and more door to door action.

It has been one of the more popular classes. i had an old TC4 that I converted to run as a VTA car in a "run what you brung class." Slowly we added more and more cars and we have been running about 15 or so cars each Friday night.

As far as timing, I think most people are running right up to the timing mark.

I will say this, I am one of the cars that has been able to out pace others on the track. When the class was new, the difference was very noticeable. I had a lot of give me a lot of slack about running a "cheater motor", which I took with a grain of salt but there are so many times you can be called a cheater and have the other person hide behind they "joke".

Water under the bridge though as I stuck to my guns and kept telling people that this class is more about how you drive and setup the car. True, there will always be differences in motors, speed controls, etc... It is the nature of the manufacturing process. Sometime the difference is bigger than others. People started to listen and take more time setting up and maintaining their cars and the gap has closed.

I can no longer just take for granted that I will walk away with it. The pace is getting faster and faster. I switched to a used T3'10 cause I hated to bring some many parts bins to the track and everyone switched to belts about that time too. May be unrelated, may not be. What is encouraging is there is a new racer to the track that is running an old TC3 and he can pull past me down the straight like I used to pull away from others. My only saving grace is he tends to traction roll when the pressure is on. When he gets the driving figured out, he is going to be a force!

Bottom line...there are differences in motors, escs...chasis...all of these add up to differences in speed. You have to setup you car, maintain it, etc...




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Hey guys. I've got a VTA question/problem that I'm looking for some help with. My local track started a VTA class about a year ago and it has taken off great. The problem that we are running into is that the cars are not equal in speed cause some motors are faster than others. We run on a small track and go by the official VTA rules with a FDR of 6.9 and most of the cars are very close in speed, but a select few can pass a car in the strait almost like they are standing still. At first we thought that it was just that the car had a better set up, or was cleaner, but we have set ours up the best we can and clean them after every race day, and that made it a bit better but still those select few can still pull away from the slower ones. It's starting to discourage people from racing because they want to be competitive, and spend a ton of time teching their cars but have no chance of winning.

Does anyone have any ideas or advice to help me with our problem? Feel free to PM me too if you don't want to post it on here. Thanks
Fluffy, we need to get together on the track when I got some time. I am not sure the trouble is the motor as I see some weird things as far as handling goes when i watch you car. Don't get discouraged. I know that there are differences in the motor but I think we can help close the gap a bit. We gotta get you car handling better. Eric just switched his motor and ESC and his speeds went up a lot. Now, I am not saying you need to do this, but I think with some track time we can figure it out.

I will say this, I am full on the throttle for most of the track. The only places I let up are the 180 degree turns and I am about 3/4 to 1/2 on the throttle through those turns. I try to keep in tight to the corners but not close enough to hit the dots. If you can't be on the throttle for the same and hold the tight line like my car, then it is more likely the setup you are running. Also, you need to use some thing different on the tires. I am not sure the simple green is cutting it. Looking the old tire of yours, they are very dirty and that may have something to do with the traction.

When I get off the track, I clean my tires with either lighter fluid, orange glo, or traction compound. I found the compound cleans it the best but as it is also the most expensive, I don't use it as much. If my tires are really dirty I use motor spray but immediately follow that up with compound as the motor spray dries out the tires so fast which will kill traction.

After cleaning I put compound on right away. I have experimented with just cleaning the tires and running them but I don't get consistent enough traction that way. I found the sticky fingers compound to give great consistent results from start to finish. We should try that next Friday.


Sorry I didn't get back to you by the way about the steering, I was gigging this weekend and didn't have a bunch of time. IN the meantime, search my user name for posts in the T3'11 thread to read about the method I use. I will see about putting a sheet together for you, just not right now as I have some things to finalize from this weekend. Keep your chin up and don't get discouraged. We'll get you running hot!
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:05 PM   #1339
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Wow thanks for the input guys. Now here are some other points that we have already done. The majority of the racers all run the Ballistic 25.5 motor and edge esc or the gtp2, and every racer there has their motor advanced to 45 on the end bell. Now i will admit that i am one of the drivers getting passed and i am good friends with one of the "fast guys" and we have gone done to the track to practice together and see if we can figure this out. We did a drag race in the straight, and he beat me by 2 car lengths. I have been driving at this track for 2 years every week so i would consider myself quite experienced, and my friend started maybe 6 months after me. And also we have a new kid that just started racing that happens to have one of the "fast setups" and he can't drive at all, (like when we all first started) and he is beating experienced drivers because he is faster. We tech our cars about once a month and we are all close friends so i am almost 100% sure that no one is cheating. I'll try to post some races and pics of our track.....i'm not great with computers lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOsX8...layer_embedded
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:47 PM   #1340
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Hey Mera'din i just saw that you posted. Those tires that you looked at were not cleaned after i ran them. They are my old set, and after i ran them i just threw them in the tool box and forgot them. When i clean my tires, they are very clean leaving nothing on a clean white rag. So i don't think that is it. And the reason Eric was slow and now fast after buying a new motor and esc is that his esc was bad for a while and finally just puffed out some smoke last week revealing the problem. And even though he is faster than what he was running, he is still not as fast as the "fast guys." I think my point is still valid. For example, your fastest lap time is an 8.1 and mine is an 8.4 and your bro's is an 8.5 and your bro is faster than me which tells me that i cornered a bit better than him but if i don't stay on that exact fastest lap line on the track, he will beat me every time because he is faster on the straights. PM or txt me when you want to meet up bud.
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Old 07-15-2012, 08:01 PM   #1341
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"That's one small step for man, one giant leap for VTA" - the VTA Voyagers.
Watch the VTA A-Main Video from last Thursday...
http://youtu.be/-z_39vv8fjc
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Old 07-15-2012, 08:26 PM   #1342
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hey everybody...I hope the US VTA racing went well this weekend ...we had a good time and Ill post about it later...

but let me hit on some things I read....

The Ballastic and SS 25.5 have motor timming...both can be adjusted by loosing the 3 screws and turning the end....

Yes the motors (ball or SS) are not completely equal...these are hand wound motors...but when you are running a set FDR (6.9) and everyone is full time.45 deg...you are eliminating a tuning option...

example...my car with one motor with a 3.7 FDR will have a fast laps at 30 deg timming...while same car ,esc setting and all, with my other motor will run fast laps with 35-37 deg time on the motor...WHY?....

Ive said this to most of the locals gettting up to par...every motor has a sweet spot....the FDR and motor time work together to give you max speed and thats punch and RPM....you have to do some tunning and play with it to find it...

Now if a fixed FDR is in play...just because a car is faster on the straight with 45 deg time...doesnt mean your car will be as fast with 45 deg...you might be passing your sweet spot at 45...try going down to 40 or 35...and work around it some...you might be surprise at what you find...

Ive got guys running the same FDR as me and time...and are slow on the straight...but when the work on they sweet spot...we are about dead even...

NOTE: when messing with the motor time...just snug the screws down...if you overtighten them, you may damage the sensor board...

Im glad to see all the US VTA racers on here getting ready for...the ...





later later...lol...cya
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Old 07-15-2012, 08:32 PM   #1343
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also...you esc setting make a differents as well....

here is what I run on my Novak Edge/GTB2

factory settings other than min drive to max...and no drag brake
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Old 07-15-2012, 08:35 PM   #1344
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Hey Mera'din i just saw that you posted. Those tires that you looked at were not cleaned after i ran them. They are my old set, and after i ran them i just threw them in the tool box and forgot them. When i clean my tires, they are very clean leaving nothing on a clean white rag. So i don't think that is it. And the reason Eric was slow and now fast after buying a new motor and esc is that his esc was bad for a while and finally just puffed out some smoke last week revealing the problem. And even though he is faster than what he was running, he is still not as fast as the "fast guys." I think my point is still valid. For example, your fastest lap time is an 8.1 and mine is an 8.4 and your bro's is an 8.5 and your bro is faster than me which tells me that i cornered a bit better than him but if i don't stay on that exact fastest lap line on the track, he will beat me every time because he is faster on the straights. PM or txt me when you want to meet up bud.
One fast lap won't win a race. What about your deviations? Consistency is really important. VTA is all about maintaining corner speed and staying clean. WWDDWW34's points are very valid.

That's a very tight track and I'm sure passing cleanly is a b@tch, but there was a lot of banging, bouncing and dirty driving in that video. Any time spent on your lid or bouncing off a wall or another car is hurting your laptimes. Run cleanly and you'll turn more laps. (It's hard to run cleanly when someone punts you. Everyone has to try to run cleanly.)

There are differences between motors -- not Ballistic vs SS, but manufacturing tolerances. Some motors are just better than others.
Your fixed FDR rule means that you can't really experiment to find the "sweet spot" between gearing and timing, so you are amplifying the differences in the motors. If one motor turns 1000 RPM faster than another you'll be able to see it.
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Old 07-15-2012, 08:53 PM   #1345
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Basically if a guy has not put in at least 100 laps on the track with their car prior to the race, and they are up against somebody who has, then they have a "snowball's chance in hell" of winning against the practiced driver.
You basically just described my life in VTA racing, and the number one reason I never get a chance to escape the back marker role in this whole show.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:13 PM   #1346
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Default Body Question

Just throwing this out there.....is there any significant aerodynamic help from one approved body to the next.......some look more sleek than others?

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Old 07-15-2012, 09:25 PM   #1347
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Just throwing this out there.....is there any significant aerodynamic help from one approved body to the next.......some look more sleek than others?

R
After many countless hours of wind tunnel testing, I found that the Protoform J71 body has the best aerodynamics.

Oh, and by "wind tunnel" I mean the large round fan that blows air towards the driver's stand.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:26 PM   #1348
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It isn't a fixed fdr, that is just the lower limit. People can run whatever they want as long as they don't go lower than a 6.9. Everyone turns their end ell up as they assumed that meant faster, myself included!

Good points on the tuning. Would you start with turning the end bell down or pinion changes?

Fluffy, I kinda assumed that with the tires but I figured I'd bring it up. We still need to change your treatment procedure as I don't think you are getting the most out of the car. Simple green will clean the tire but you need to replenish the oils in the tire to keep them soft and rubbery. The tires in you bin were dirty yes, but also very stiff.

Tire traction compound does more than clean the tire and soften it, it conditions it Chemically. Their are agents in there that will penetrate into the tire, returning the rubber to a more factory state of suppleness.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:32 PM   #1349
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My kind of testing!!! I like that shell.....I guess what I was getting at if you only change the body style (keep chassis set up exactly the same) would the car handle and produce exactly the same lap times?

Why I ask....I like toooo many of the body styles to settle on just one.....if I slammed a different one on is the car going to drive like a tank or just keep rollin'

Come on I know someone out there has actually tested this!!!!

R


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After many countless hours of wind tunnel testing, I found that the Protoform J71 body has the best aerodynamics.

Oh, and by "wind tunnel" I mean the large round fan that blows air towards the driver's stand.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:33 PM   #1350
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Just throwing this out there.....is there any significant aerodynamic help from one approved body to the next.......some look more sleek than others?

R
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I honestly don't notice much difference, other than durability. You see a lot of Camaros and Pegasus Mustangs since they are one piece and last a long time.

Edit: BTW i have been stomped out multiple times by drivers with the Parma Cuda, which is a shoebox with wheel wells.
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