R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-11-2012, 05:46 AM   #1246
Tech Champion
 
k_bojar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 6,918
Trader Rating: 30 (100%+)
Send a message via ICQ to k_bojar Send a message via AIM to k_bojar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hexonox View Post
How do you expect new comers to this class to be able to conform to the rules when they change on a daily basis. Some one spent a lot of time to create a rule set that has become the fastest growing class in r/c: and now it's ok to toss the rules. I'm confused honestly. If I knew that the rules didn't matter to begin with; I wouldn't have wasted my time trying to conform to them.


p.s. they make hornet spray now!!!!
how do you figure the rules change daily? the bit about the front spoiler has ALWAYS been there - since the very beginning and never have I heard anyone say it effects performance one way or the other...its all about durability on the body...so basically everyone that shoe-goo's the inside of their bodies should be disallowed because its not specifically worded in the rules or you feel the rules have changed/ignored?

no one said the rules are ignored - what rule are you specifically referring to??

and hornet spray is nice for one or 2 - but better watch your step around a whole nest of them if you're trying to wake them up
__________________
Bodies By Bean | Team Belly
k_bojar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 06:00 AM   #1247
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Northeast GA
Posts: 1,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by k_bojar View Post
how do you figure the rules change daily? the bit about the front spoiler has ALWAYS been there - since the very beginning and never have I heard anyone say it effects performance one way or the other...its all about durability on the body...so basically everyone that shoe-goo's the inside of their bodies should be disallowed because its not specifically worded in the rules or you feel the rules have changed/ignored?

no one said the rules are ignored - what rule are you specifically referring to??

and hornet spray is nice for one or 2 - but better watch your step around a whole nest of them if you're trying to wake them up
There is a rule about trimming the body on the cut line. I don't know where the cut line on the camaro is but if it does not wrap around the nose like in the previous pictures then it should not be allowed. Durability is not even an issue here. The main question is where is the cut line?

It might affect performance. By wrapping the spoiler around the whole nose you are limiting the amount of air that gets inside the body and increasing front down force. Air inside the body is a major source of drag and thus lower lap times. Question is if vta cars produce enough resistance to make a noticeable difference. It could even produce enough resistance in the front of the car by increasing the size of the nose to slow it down. Maybe some one can test this theory if they want. It would be simple. Take an old body and run some laps with it and get your lap times then remove the tail light panel from the car and run more laps. See if there is a difference. If not then maybe the rule about using the cut lines should be removed to prevent future confusion and arguments.
__________________
3Racing Sakura XI 17.5 TC
Formula Rabbit (FGX conversion) 21.5
STRC LCG 2WD Slash 17.5
Serpent S120 13.5
6376vette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 06:20 AM   #1248
Tech Champion
 
k_bojar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 6,918
Trader Rating: 30 (100%+)
Send a message via ICQ to k_bojar Send a message via AIM to k_bojar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6376vette View Post
There is a rule about trimming the body on the cut line. I don't know where the cut line on the camaro is but if it does not wrap around the nose like in the previous pictures then it should not be allowed. Durability is not even an issue here. The main question is where is the cut line?

It might affect performance. By wrapping the spoiler around the whole nose you are limiting the amount of air that gets inside the body and increasing front down force. Air inside the body is a major source of drag and thus lower lap times. Question is if vta cars produce enough resistance to make a noticeable difference. It could even produce enough resistance in the front of the car by increasing the size of the nose to slow it down. Maybe some one can test this theory if they want. It would be simple. Take an old body and run some laps with it and get your lap times then remove the tail light panel from the car and run more laps. See if there is a difference. If not then maybe the rule about using the cut lines should be removed to prevent future confusion and arguments.
I've run mine both ways, and honestly (like every VTA body), there is no advantage running it either way. so it does come down to a durability issue - do you wanna have to shoe-good/tape your front spoiler or not? the camaro isn't the only car effected by this - the 'cuda, the mustang, the J71 all have the spoilers that gain strength by leaving in that little bit of extra lexan

and i do believe the front nose line extends - but i haven't seen an unpainted/uncut camaro body in a while

but either way, this concept has been around since before robk took over the reigns of USVTA - so its kinda moot to say its a new rule or something that people are ignoring..

cut line rules are there to stop the people who believe trimming the side of a body down to next to nothing is an aero-advantage for racing..and most times, I've never seen a race director go after a driver for the nose being cut too low/short...it's usually the side and/or the rear of the bodies - how many TC drivers do you see with the rear quarter panel the same length as the doors? pretty much everyone

my whole point is this isn't something new, or something off the top of someone heads - its been around (and tested) for a while, and if it really offered ANY kind of advantage (outside of extending the life of the spoiler) EVERYONE would be doing it
__________________
Bodies By Bean | Team Belly
k_bojar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 08:25 AM   #1249
Tech Champion
 
robk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Macho Business Donkey Wrestler
Posts: 7,406
Trader Rating: 22 (100%+)
Default

I see we are in the mood to complain .

The reason that we have been doing this since the class literally started was to improve durability. There is no advantage to this other than keeping body sets in one piece.
__________________
A mutually re-enforcing cascade of failure

"Failior [sic] crowns enterprise." Robert Goddard

I-Lap Scoring Systems http://www.rclapcounter.com/
robk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 08:38 AM   #1250
Tech Champion
 
DARKSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nashville-Memphis
Posts: 7,670
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Attached Thumbnails
U.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing Part 2-hpi-bodyline.jpg  
__________________
Myron "BATTMAN" Kinnard
Team Associated/Reedy Powered/PROTOform/RockStar Paint, LLC
THUNDER JAM IX Snowbirds Warm-up
January 21, 2017 Thunder RC Raceway
http://events.rcsignup.com/events/displayEvent.cfm?id=5313
DARKSIDE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 08:39 AM   #1251
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Northeast GA
Posts: 1,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by k_bojar View Post
I've run mine both ways, and honestly (like every VTA body), there is no advantage running it either way. so it does come down to a durability issue - do you wanna have to shoe-good/tape your front spoiler or not? the camaro isn't the only car effected by this - the 'cuda, the mustang, the J71 all have the spoilers that gain strength by leaving in that little bit of extra lexan

and i do believe the front nose line extends - but i haven't seen an unpainted/uncut camaro body in a while

but either way, this concept has been around since before robk took over the reigns of USVTA - so its kinda moot to say its a new rule or something that people are ignoring..

cut line rules are there to stop the people who believe trimming the side of a body down to next to nothing is an aero-advantage for racing..and most times, I've never seen a race director go after a driver for the nose being cut too low/short...it's usually the side and/or the rear of the bodies - how many TC drivers do you see with the rear quarter panel the same length as the doors? pretty much everyone

my whole point is this isn't something new, or something off the top of someone heads - its been around (and tested) for a while, and if it really offered ANY kind of advantage (outside of extending the life of the spoiler) EVERYONE would be doing it
Believe me. I completely see and understand your points and I agree but the issue is where are the cut lines? The rules clearly state that the body must be trimmed on the cut lines. They do not say that you can leave extra lexan in place to make the body stronger. As a matter of fact the rules do call out that you can not do this. No additional skirts or raised/extended wings. Also the fact that the body trimming rules may have been ignored or bent for years doesn't make it right or acceptable. I can understand that it doesn't offer a performance advantage and that's fine but a couple of weeks ago and for months now the argument has been to follow the rules to the letter. Now if the cut line does not extend and this type of trimming is allowed then the argument about to the letter has been severely damaged.

if the argument is based that the spoiler does not alter performance so it is ok is this logic going to be extended other parts of the rule set? So if grinding and sanding the tire tread is found to offer no performance advantage that should be ok? Ok stupid example because I can drive on concrete for 10 minutes and get the same effect but do you see the point? Plus if you allow the front of the car to be exempt from the cut line rules then why not the doors or the fenders or the tail light panel. The rules do not specifically call out any exempt parts of the body. If varying from the spoiler cut lines is allowed to be exempt it either needs to be stated as such or the whole body is open to slight modifications and variences from the written rules. It can even be argued that full size trans am racers had full nose spoilers. That's fine but they also had other body modifications done to lighten the body, improve air fow and cooling etc.

I don't care either way but it is frustrating to read the threads with a whole bunch of people screaming to leave the rules alone every time a battery or motor issue comes up just to have those same people say that it is ok to ignore the rules this time. I want to be clear.I am not singling anyone out. Just making a point. If people are going to be hard core that the rules cannot be changed for other parts then be consistent with all of the rules. Don't pick and choose.

Still hoping someone can clarify exactly where the cut lines on the camaro are. Funny thing is I think the body looks better with the full spoiler and I would like to see it written in that this is ok on all vta bodies but right now, as written today, varying from the cut lines breaks the rules. A simple amendment to the body portion of the rules would do the trick to end all arguments about the front spoiler. Go ahead and clarify if other bodies rear spoiler can be used on a different body too. I never saw. an official ruling on this issue either. Maybe I missed it.
__________________
3Racing Sakura XI 17.5 TC
Formula Rabbit (FGX conversion) 21.5
STRC LCG 2WD Slash 17.5
Serpent S120 13.5
6376vette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 08:42 AM   #1252
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Northeast GA
Posts: 1,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robk View Post
I see we are in the mood to complain .

The reason that we have been doing this since the class literally started was to improve durability. There is no advantage to this other than keeping body sets in one piece.
Then the rule set needs to be changed to state that this is acceptable. The way I read it that it is not acceptable and violates the body rule.

Not complaining just looking for consistency and clarification so there is no room to complain.
__________________
3Racing Sakura XI 17.5 TC
Formula Rabbit (FGX conversion) 21.5
STRC LCG 2WD Slash 17.5
Serpent S120 13.5
6376vette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 08:44 AM   #1253
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Northeast GA
Posts: 1,685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
That looks tons better than the duck bill front spoiler but where are the cut lines?
__________________
3Racing Sakura XI 17.5 TC
Formula Rabbit (FGX conversion) 21.5
STRC LCG 2WD Slash 17.5
Serpent S120 13.5
6376vette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 08:48 AM   #1254
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Northeast GA
Posts: 1,685
Default

The issue in itself is not the spoiler. The issue is are the rules going to be followed as written or not? This should lead to a very helpful and clarifying addition to the rules instead of being an argument. If it is ok then write it in so everyone knows this is ok and not just the forum users.
__________________
3Racing Sakura XI 17.5 TC
Formula Rabbit (FGX conversion) 21.5
STRC LCG 2WD Slash 17.5
Serpent S120 13.5
6376vette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 09:05 AM   #1255
Tech Champion
 
k_bojar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 6,918
Trader Rating: 30 (100%+)
Send a message via ICQ to k_bojar Send a message via AIM to k_bojar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6376vette View Post
I don't care either way but it is frustrating to read the threads with a whole bunch of people screaming to leave the rules alone every time a battery or motor issue comes up just to have those same people say that it is ok to ignore the rules this time. I want to be clear.I am not singling anyone out. Just making a point. If people are going to be hard core that the rules cannot be changed for other parts then be consistent with all of the rules. Don't pick and choose.
the world of club racing RC is always going to have someone come in and bitch about a defined set of rules because it doesn't fit what they have, what they own or what they want to run...

even ROAR doesn't spell out EVERY LITTLE DETAIL - the more little minute details you put in rules, the more people are going to look for loopholes and the more people are gonna bitch

but that being said, you still need to have BASICS in rules - as a guidelines for how people should act...you need to have that happy medium that address the general population...

if the rules specifically said you cannot run that extra lexan - how do you handle a car, say the J71 (or the parma cuda) for example, if it came from the factory with the cut line that included that extra support?? for a driver to cut it away?

its a twisty slipperly ledge that you need to walk on to do this...and honestly, things are going quite well at the moment
__________________
Bodies By Bean | Team Belly
k_bojar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 09:05 AM   #1256
Tech Champion
 
DARKSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nashville-Memphis
Posts: 7,670
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

very good point...and I can see this being addressed...wait for it ,wait for it...answer the phone dude..oh you at work...ok...point taken...

and on the spoiler as such HPI1970 Boss...

For the HPI Mustangs which are not provided with a spoiler:
A lexan spoiler of 16mm total height from trunk deck, and overall chord of 20mm is allowable. All other bodies must use the spoiler included with that specific body set. Built in spoilers may not be enhanced. 17546 - 1970 Ford Mustang Boss 302 (scale wing ok)

and some mod here....if Robk approves it

Body provided deck lid spoilers allowed (not wings). No additional skirts or raised/extended wings or air control surfaces allowed. Body must be trimmed at body trim lines, the front spoiler may be cut from the front panel to the end of the front spoiler ONLY...this is to help with enforment on the body, it is not a performance modification.Full rear bumper required. It is highly preferred that bodies are detailed in race type livery in period-correct paint schemes. Fluorescent colors, wild graphics, chromes and non-period correct paint schemes are frowned upon. All cars must have a number on the hood, both doors and trunk lid. Wheel covers of any type are NOT allowed.
All cars must include a driver figure consisting of at least a head and shoulders.

example below from back in the day...2009 ish
Attached Thumbnails
U.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing Part 2-darkside-racing-175.jpg   U.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing Part 2-usvta-nationals-2009-082.jpg  
__________________
Myron "BATTMAN" Kinnard
Team Associated/Reedy Powered/PROTOform/RockStar Paint, LLC
THUNDER JAM IX Snowbirds Warm-up
January 21, 2017 Thunder RC Raceway
http://events.rcsignup.com/events/displayEvent.cfm?id=5313
DARKSIDE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 09:11 AM   #1257
Tech Master
 
pejota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Posts: 1,018
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default

Sweet baby Jesus...

pejota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 09:13 AM   #1258
Tech Elite
 
wwddww34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Dallas Texas
Posts: 2,555
Trader Rating: 9 (91%+)
Default

This sign says it all...
wwddww34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 09:15 AM   #1259
Tech Master
 
cdwilliams1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 1,055
Trader Rating: 38 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopyrc View Post
Ok what I want to know is how many guys cry about having to purchase a battery that they can only use in that class or 1/12th scale? Or how about using a separate battery for the receiver? Does anyone complain about that? Do they complain that they have to buy equipment just to conform to those rules? Do they constantly show up griping about how absurd the rules are just because they dont like or understand them? I'm just asking?
Well.... yes and no For a certain group of people, they do gripe and some of them even broke off a new group to run "Official" VTA at a local armory instead of the track. That pretty much settled the issue.... everyone that had a problem with it runs somewhere else now. They did 1 year of allowing either setup to give guys time to afford gear, and then the armory guys went to full VTA.

I'm told the group that still runs at the track were primarily 1/12 scale racers anyway before VTA so the rules were altered so they could run all their existing gear. So pretty much everyone got what they wanted via splintering the group, unfortunately. Could have been a much larger race group since both groups draw around 15 cars per raceday.

It's a weird scenario. Since you can run any 17.5, there are a ton of cheap used motor options available. Used 1s packs tend to get swapped for only $20 locally and on eBay. So that's pretty cheap too. On the downside though, You do have to run an extra receiver pack or solder up the Novak Booster kit. That adds cost and weight distribution issues. All the VTA-approved Novak speedos will run 1s anyway without modification, your servo just runs a bit slower that way and some of the Savox ones will brown out here and there. Best to supplement the power but not totally needed. The other downside is you would have to spend money to get up to official spec if you wanted to run VTA anywhere else, or come to a nationals race.

I went 17.5/1s since the track is only about 5 minutes from where I work and popping over after work for the weeknight races is pretty easy for me this way. Plus I already had a spare 17.5 sitting on the shelf from blinky TC class.

Lap time wise.... we had some of our best guys compare both setups. 17.5 on 1s is generally on average only about 1.5 to 2.5 seconds slower per lap (with a top notch driver) compared to a 25.5 on 2s. If you compare individual "hot laps" there are times when 17.5 has been faster than 25.5. Now for an average driver, that gap would probably grow some, but it's pretty comparable to the "spirit" of slow and controlled racing.
__________________
I race at www.mncarpetoval.com !
cdwilliams1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2012, 09:18 AM   #1260
Tech Initiate
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 41
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

How often and in what manor is the "governing body" of USVTA assessing the rules and their effectiveness?

This issue about cutting 1/4" peice of lexan is really controversial/trivial. doesnt the "spirit of vta" cover stuff like that? ie let it go?
scott.wilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
U.S. Vintage Trans-Am [PICS & PAINT Discussion ONLY!!!] speedsterblade Electric On-Road 5821 11-21-2016 11:39 AM
TeamNovak (U.S Vintage Trans-Am) NovakTwo Electric On-Road 329 12-07-2013 08:48 PM
U.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing squarehead Electric On-Road 14187 03-21-2012 02:43 PM
U.S. Vintage Trans Am Nationals: April 12th, 2008 squarehead Wisconsin & Illinois Racing 308 05-14-2008 08:56 AM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 02:15 PM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net

SEO by vBSEO 3.5.0