View Poll Results: what's your tire choice?
Protoform
46
30.67%
HPI
104
69.33%
Voters: 150. You may not vote on this poll
4318LikesU.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing Part 2
03-08-2016, 11:27 AM
#9256
All the rotors were checked for diameter and type, but not for strength. Any motors with SmCo rotors were not allowed to compete until the correct rotor (12.3 Neo) was installed. I do recall hearing that a couple people were caught out by this and did not know they had a SmCo rotor.
If there really isn't a true or significant performance difference, I guess it should be looked at to determine if it could be allowed going forwards. For now though, a decent number of folks are upset because the wrong (not legal) rotor was installed in their motor from the factory, without their knowledge.
My motor/rotor is a 5 yr old converted SS to Ballistic with the original rotor.
If there really isn't a true or significant performance difference, I guess it should be looked at to determine if it could be allowed going forwards. For now though, a decent number of folks are upset because the wrong (not legal) rotor was installed in their motor from the factory, without their knowledge.
My motor/rotor is a 5 yr old converted SS to Ballistic with the original rotor.
However, the stator resistance goes up at a rate of 0.2%/C and the SmCo gains an advantage of 0.09%/C rotor strength over the Neo rotor. So by the time you get up into the temperature range where the SmCo would have a significant or measurable difference, your stator resistance increases will be negating any or all gains by the rotor.
You're better off to simply gear and/or set the timing on the motor to run cooler than by installing an SmCo rotor, IMHO.
Let's put it another way: A 21.5 crawler stator (black insert) has 40% less resistance than a 25.5 stator. At our track a 21.5 USGT car is about 0.5 seconds faster than USVTA. If you allow 0.2sec/lap for the lower weight of the USGT car, that leaves about 0.3 sec/lap attributed to the hp increase. So 40% less resistance =0.3 sec/lap. In the SmCo case, at around 160F, the rotor should have about a 3.6% advantage in rotor strength over the NEO rotor. If you assume the power gains from lower resistance are comparable to a stronger rotor (which they are NOT from my on-track testing and research on line...the stator resistance is WAY more important), the SmCO rotor might account for 1/10th of 40%, or 4%. Which would be 0.3 sec/lap x 0.04 = 0.012 seconds. The reality is that it would be less than that.
Just my $0.02 from a technical viewpoint.
Mark
PS...yes I am a nerd, and a retired mechanical engineer. This stuff interests me.
03-08-2016, 11:45 AM
#9257
Someone would have to do some serious testing to determine if it's an advantage or not.
However, the stator resistance goes up at a rate of 0.2%/C and the SmCo gains an advantage of 0.09%/C rotor strength over the Neo rotor. So by the time you get up into the temperature range where the SmCo would have a significant or measurable difference, your stator resistance increases will be negating any or all gains by the rotor.
You're better off to simply gear and/or set the timing on the motor to run cooler than by installing an SmCo rotor, IMHO.
Let's put it another way: A 21.5 crawler stator (black insert) has 40% less resistance than a 25.5 stator. At our track a 21.5 USGT car is about 0.5 seconds faster than USVTA. If you allow 0.2sec/lap for the lower weight of the USGT car, that leaves about 0.3 sec/lap attributed to the hp increase. So 40% less resistance =0.3 sec/lap. In the SmCo case, at around 160F, the rotor should have about a 3.6% advantage in rotor strength over the NEO rotor. If you assume the power gains from lower resistance are comparable to a stronger rotor (which they are NOT from my on-track testing and research on line...the stator resistance is WAY more important), the SmCO rotor might account for 1/10th of 40%, or 4%. Which would be 0.3 sec/lap x 0.04 = 0.012 seconds. The reality is that it would be less than that.
Just my $0.02 from a technical viewpoint.
Mark
PS...yes I am a nerd, and a retired mechanical engineer. This stuff interests me.
However, the stator resistance goes up at a rate of 0.2%/C and the SmCo gains an advantage of 0.09%/C rotor strength over the Neo rotor. So by the time you get up into the temperature range where the SmCo would have a significant or measurable difference, your stator resistance increases will be negating any or all gains by the rotor.
You're better off to simply gear and/or set the timing on the motor to run cooler than by installing an SmCo rotor, IMHO.
Let's put it another way: A 21.5 crawler stator (black insert) has 40% less resistance than a 25.5 stator. At our track a 21.5 USGT car is about 0.5 seconds faster than USVTA. If you allow 0.2sec/lap for the lower weight of the USGT car, that leaves about 0.3 sec/lap attributed to the hp increase. So 40% less resistance =0.3 sec/lap. In the SmCo case, at around 160F, the rotor should have about a 3.6% advantage in rotor strength over the NEO rotor. If you assume the power gains from lower resistance are comparable to a stronger rotor (which they are NOT from my on-track testing and research on line...the stator resistance is WAY more important), the SmCO rotor might account for 1/10th of 40%, or 4%. Which would be 0.3 sec/lap x 0.04 = 0.012 seconds. The reality is that it would be less than that.
Just my $0.02 from a technical viewpoint.
Mark
PS...yes I am a nerd, and a retired mechanical engineer. This stuff interests me.
Sounds like the advantage is definitely debatable and definitely testable. Two drivers, two cars, 5 runs per rotor type to get enough data points for a statistical average, removing outliers/mistake laps. None of this removes the issue at hand where Novak has built spec motors with rotors not legal to the rules. I don't know anything about their quality management system, but clearly it didn't work. I've heard of similar issues with some of their speed control boards. Get it together guys
03-08-2016, 01:55 PM
#9258
Nooooooovak.
Wish they would switch to Hobbywing and have a spec ESC /motor like some of the F1 races. The Hobbywing combo is the same price as the Nooooooovak motor lol
Wish they would switch to Hobbywing and have a spec ESC /motor like some of the F1 races. The Hobbywing combo is the same price as the Nooooooovak motor lol
03-09-2016, 07:08 AM
#9265
Novak motor has been working well for years. This is the first year I have seen any issues come up with the motors at a large event with the rotors.
The big thing you need to worry about is guys like Brian MvGreevy taking performance enhancing drugs! We are still waiting on the blood and piss test results from the scale nationals in Indy.
Word on the streets is, he is the Lance Armstrong of USVTA. 
The big thing you need to worry about is guys like Brian MvGreevy taking performance enhancing drugs! We are still waiting on the blood and piss test results from the scale nationals in Indy.
Word on the streets is, he is the Lance Armstrong of USVTA.
03-09-2016, 07:29 AM
#9266
Novak motor has been working well for years. This is the first year I have seen any issues come up with the motors at a large event with the rotors.
The big thing you need to worry about is guys like Brian MvGreevy taking performance enhancing drugs! We are still waiting on the blood and piss test results from the scale nationals in Indy. Word on the streets is, he is the Lance Armstrong of USVTA.
The big thing you need to worry about is guys like Brian MvGreevy taking performance enhancing drugs! We are still waiting on the blood and piss test results from the scale nationals in Indy.
Word on the streets is, he is the Lance Armstrong of USVTA.
03-09-2016, 01:28 PM
#9267
Mark C. brings up a very valid point with the different black stators. Having 21.5 and 18.5 crawlers with black colored stator inserts present a problem. Maybe not necessarily at large events where time and personnel are available for more in-depth tech, but these events are an extremely small in percentage when compared to local VTA racing events.
Bottom line - racers cheat....period. Whether the event is large or small. Whether it's NASCAR or toy cars. At the toy car level, I just don't get it but we know it happens. I for one would have absolutely zero satisfaction in knowing I had to cheat to win. Others, they don't seem to care, and somehow make a conscious decision to be ok with it.
I certainly would have liked to have seen Novak keep a clear visual distinction.
Bottom line - racers cheat....period. Whether the event is large or small. Whether it's NASCAR or toy cars. At the toy car level, I just don't get it but we know it happens. I for one would have absolutely zero satisfaction in knowing I had to cheat to win. Others, they don't seem to care, and somehow make a conscious decision to be ok with it.
I certainly would have liked to have seen Novak keep a clear visual distinction.
03-10-2016, 10:03 AM
#9268
Mark C. brings up a very valid point with the different black stators. Having 21.5 and 18.5 crawlers with black colored stator inserts present a problem. Maybe not necessarily at large events where time and personnel are available for more in-depth tech, but these events are an extremely small in percentage when compared to local VTA racing events.
Bottom line - racers cheat....period. Whether the event is large or small. Whether it's NASCAR or toy cars. At the toy car level, I just don't get it but we know it happens. I for one would have absolutely zero satisfaction in knowing I had to cheat to win. Others, they don't seem to care, and somehow make a conscious decision to be ok with it.
I certainly would have liked to have seen Novak keep a clear visual distinction.
Bottom line - racers cheat....period. Whether the event is large or small. Whether it's NASCAR or toy cars. At the toy car level, I just don't get it but we know it happens. I for one would have absolutely zero satisfaction in knowing I had to cheat to win. Others, they don't seem to care, and somehow make a conscious decision to be ok with it.
I certainly would have liked to have seen Novak keep a clear visual distinction.
However, just to chime in, we had a few of S6621 and S6648 stators come in with Black insulators instead of Green as well as a 3648 motor.
I made contact with Novak and all was made right by them, new motors/stators with the correct color insulator were sent to me and the incorrect were sent back.
I would suggest, that if the LHS or internet customer has also received some of these (if there are more), they promptly get in touch with Novak customer service so it can be taken care of and not take the stance of "oh Well" and sell/use them anyway.
Just my thoughts
03-11-2016, 12:51 PM
#9270
Tech Master
iTrader: (204)
Mark C. brings up a very valid point with the different black stators. Having 21.5 and 18.5 crawlers with black colored stator inserts present a problem. Maybe not necessarily at large events where time and personnel are available for more in-depth tech, but these events are an extremely small in percentage when compared to local VTA racing events.
Bottom line - racers cheat....period. Whether the event is large or small. Whether it's NASCAR or toy cars. At the toy car level, I just don't get it but we know it happens. I for one would have absolutely zero satisfaction in knowing I had to cheat to win. Others, they don't seem to care, and somehow make a conscious decision to be ok with it.
I certainly would have liked to have seen Novak keep a clear visual distinction.
Bottom line - racers cheat....period. Whether the event is large or small. Whether it's NASCAR or toy cars. At the toy car level, I just don't get it but we know it happens. I for one would have absolutely zero satisfaction in knowing I had to cheat to win. Others, they don't seem to care, and somehow make a conscious decision to be ok with it.
I certainly would have liked to have seen Novak keep a clear visual distinction.
I agree with the bottom line- racers cheat and this is just a frustrating thing, had a local racer tell me that I need to be charging my batteries up to 4.22 volts per cell and all the guys who he was racing against was doing this in the bismark race that he attended, and the funny thing was he did not seem to think it was cheating, as the way I see it, alot of the racing that is going on is at a local level, just makes you wonder why the others they race with do not complain about them
