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Old 12-05-2014, 12:24 PM   #8221
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Originally Posted by hairless_ape View Post
Claiming that the Novak motor made the class popular is a fallacy. What made the class popular was the slow speed racing. The manufacturer is irrelevant.

Do you honestly think USVTA would have tanked if it were a Reedy Sonic motor instead of Novak? I didn't think so.
I don't think anyone is claiming that it was the Novak motor that made the class popular. It's more that one specific motor was picked. So if the Reedy motor was picked, you're right, the class would be the same. However, Novak went out of their way to make a motor/speedo combo specifically for USVTA. I think that has more to do with it.

What you're advocating is any 25.5 motor. While the argument sounds good, just look at the Trinity D3.5 debacle and the damage that caused. If that happened in VTA, the class would die. Any RC class is difficult to build up, but it's really easy to kill it.


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Since we are discussing rules. The one rule I think is a complete joke is the driver figure. It does nothing for the "look" of the class and is just a pain in the arse. Since there is not clear black and white rule as to what the driver figure has to look like, we get people putting in toy space alien heads with
antennas. Or doll heads or even paper with pencil drawings. Plus, since there is nothing saying you have to be able to see the figure, there is nothing stopping someone from putting it up on the front bumper foam. The car would still be legal; it has a driver figure. I personally put it where it would be in a real car and use a pre-painted, realistic looking driver figure so as to follow the mythical "spirit" of the rules. But since it adds nothing to the class, imo, it should just be dropped.
While I share your opinion about the driver figure, I want you consider something. Look up the rules for USRA (slot car racing). All cars must have a three dimensional driver's figure. I don't know if you've ever seen a Group 27 or Group 7 race. They are so fast you literally can't see them! So the driver figure is literally useless. But the rule is there, and everyone follows it.
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Old 12-05-2014, 12:37 PM   #8222
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with the driver figure requirment, heck may help me make weight easier lol.

Been thinking of that new AE sound unit too. Anyone looking to get one in and see how it goes for sound and weight?

Woudl think a fleet of this ripping around the track would be cool versus what some complain as the electric wheelchair sound of electric when they like the roar of nitro, but not the wind sprints to get the vehicles when they flame out.
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Old 12-05-2014, 12:39 PM   #8223
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True, but in the spirit of ingredients being equal for everyone, if I am able to use brand A versus Brand B in another ingredient that makes up the overall dish, its possible brand B is better unless you spec out that all brands must meet the same requirement,
But in this case, Sodium Chloride (Novak) in its natural state, is the only brand.

Would you also have Morton, Cargil, Boulder, Esco, North American and any other salt in your cupboard or placed on your table tonight for dinner? Your table will be pretty full of herbs and spices then.
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Old 12-05-2014, 01:08 PM   #8224
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Hi guys, Since I'm a newcomer to both r/c racing, and VTA, thought I'd chime in. Just giving newcomer feedback.

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The argument to keep the weight up to allow older chassis to compete just because lots of people still have them has more validity to the argument to keeping older chassis in for newcomers because they are cheap. The only older cheap still available kit new is the TC4. (I never base arguments on the cost of entry based on availability and price of used).
Buying a TC4 was a big reason I decided to race this class, as a newcomer. It's entry price is cheap, I got a used one for $75.00, figured if I didn't like the class, I wouldn't be out much money. Couldn't justify spending $500 for a new XRAY chassis when something competitive, slightly used can be had for $75. TC4 parts are cheap and still available, and I can (and have) upgraded parts to FT as time went on, on a gradual basis. Easier on the wallet to do it gradually.

Also the TC4 has fewer adjustments available, so I won't get lost adjusting 50 different things. And the drive shaft simplified the layout, plus I race on asphalt and heard pebbles jam into belts and end your race so why not try a shaft car?

Oh and the club tub plastic TC4 has a good reputation for being durable. Carbon fiber doesn't take impacts well. Remember how the Daytona Prototype carbon air dams keep getting shattered going thru the bus stop @ the 24 hours of Daytona? N00b driver = more impacts = more repairs.

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I only have one issue with the class, and maybe its just a personal thing. Is USVTA a beginner "newcomer" class or not. It is the easiest massed raced class to drive, but I don't believe that makesnit a begginer class. This class takes work to drive well. It takes learning your car and the way you drive. It takes having well running equipment (doesnt mean newest), and it takes practice.
I chose VTA since it's a slower class, and my r/c track driving skills are n00b. I knew I'd start off hitting walls, curbs etc.. and figured the slower speeds would cause less damage to my car, and my car (a slightly used TC4 ) cost less to buy and repair than some MOD or 17.5 high tech monster. Also people racing the faster classes take it very very seriously, and I didn't want to ruin their race / day. VTA is a more laid back crowd, people laughing on the drivers stand. At the national level I see VTA pros and it is excellent racing and at that level it is not a "newcomer" class. If you get on a plane to go compete, forking out that kinda dough means you're serious and there is a lot of competition at that level. And potential sponsors are looking at you and your results, so yeah that is PRO.

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My problem is 2 fold. One in the use of the "newcomer" argument as the foundation for not changing the rules. The rules should remain the way they are for numerous other reasons. A primary one is stability. Let the current rules changes take root. See the effect they have then re-asses. Maybe an annual or bi annual review is best instead doing this all the time. The other is that there are sponsored (some heavily) drivers racing in what is by some considered "newcomers" class. I have no problem with sponsered drivers. Most are good poeple that help newbees and have great attitudes. The problem is the intemidation factor they inherenlty have just by the fact of knowing theybare sponsored. It can bediscouraging for some to race the same spec equipment (sometimes even same chassis) and get lapped every fourth lap by the sponsored driver. I know there are heats and multiple mains to seperate drivers to avoid this, but it is still intimidating.
I do like rules stability, don't need to buy a new chassis every year. Or constantly upgrade parts or change weights. Too much crap IMO for a toy car race series. For me at least. I did like the idea of a spec motor, since in open motor classes once a faster motor comes out everyone buys it. The $99 BOSS motor is a bit pricey though, I race 21.5 Outlaw VTA open motor rule and got a Trackstar 21.5 for $30. Yeah. It holds its own and I'm happy with it. If someone wants to go spend $125 on a top end motor and be a tick faster, they can have at it. I can get 4 motors for that price.

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I would just like to see the class stop being considered an entry level class just because its the slowest. Maybe a better way to state it would be its the best class to begin with due to its simple rule set, and fewer broken parts. Price is also a bad argument. Only because for a new guy, everything legal in USVTA, is legal in 17.5. You can get set-up for the same low price, and a new guy wont notice the difference in a T4 15 and a TC4 in any class for the first few months.
I think it's entry level because it's slower and cheaper and there are less sponsored full PRO drivers in it. Especially at the CLUB level, which is where I'll be until I think I'm ready for a national race. Which will be a long while. The simple rules were appealing but not as appealing as the other items I mentioned.

But all things created equal, you'll hit the wall harder in 17.5, which causes more damage. Plus the 17.5 racers seem to be more serious, and I didn't want to ruin the race for people who take it more seriously, or who are more likely to be sponsored. And a faster car requires quicker reflexes, and more driving skill, which n00bs need to develop.

Anyway, a healthy discussion. I'm off to do some testing in the parking lot, then off to practice @ the track tonight. I just wish the front tires didn't wear out so fast
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Old 12-05-2014, 01:12 PM   #8225
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Originally Posted by CSeils View Post
But in this case, Sodium Chloride (Novak) in its natural state, is the only brand.

Would you also have Morton, Cargil, Boulder, Esco, North American and any other salt in your cupboard or placed on your table tonight for dinner? Your table will be pretty full of herbs and spices then.
If you are limiting the window to that perspective, I agree with that.

However, if the concept is that I have different chefs bring there ingredients to the table to prepare the meal, if the essence of the natural state of salt is represented properly by those different brands, just like what is allowed for the ESC and batteries as that part is key, ultimately its the meal that you are concerned about or else you would be concerned that the other ingredients such as the ESC and the battery selection have enough variance to discount their validity to be used interchangeably.

It may be though that the difference is great enough in reference to the motors that you can't do it which I am fine with. But who knows, maybe it isn't and would be similar to what the ESC and battery non-limitations are providing.
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Old 12-05-2014, 01:15 PM   #8226
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
I don't think anyone is claiming that it was the Novak motor that made the class popular. It's more that one specific motor was picked. So if the Reedy motor was picked, you're right, the class would be the same. However, Novak went out of their way to make a motor/speedo combo specifically for USVTA. I think that has more to do with it.

What you're advocating is any 25.5 motor. While the argument sounds good, just look at the Trinity D3.5 debacle and the damage that caused. If that happened in VTA, the class would die. Any RC class is difficult to build up, but it's really easy to kill it.
Go back a page or 2, someone actually said that the Novak motor is the reason for the class's popularity.

And I'm not advocating any 25.5 motor, but there's nothing wrong with having manufacturers submit a spec motor for approval. I don't think the D3 situation would have killed the class, I think USVTA is stronger than that.

ROAR blinky ESC's was a good thing, right? So why can't spec motors be? I think anyone who uses a ROAR blinky ESC, yet is unwilling to even discuss the possibility of spec motors is a hypocrite.
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Old 12-05-2014, 01:47 PM   #8227
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Originally Posted by hairless_ape View Post
Go back a page or 2, someone actually said that the Novak motor is the reason for the class's popularity.

And I'm not advocating any 25.5 motor, but there's nothing wrong with having manufacturers submit a spec motor for approval. I don't think the D3 situation would have killed the class, I think USVTA is stronger than that.

ROAR blinky ESC's was a good thing, right? So why can't spec motors be? I think anyone who uses a ROAR blinky ESC, yet is unwilling to even discuss the possibility of spec motors is a hypocrite.
There in lies the issue. At the moment there are no build specs for a 25.5 motor, period. ROAR has no specs, so right now if you had it as you want, the potential for motor tampering is wide open. No specs, so nothing is illegal. To pick one motor is the path of least issue, as long as what ever brand used doesn't change specs in mid manufacturing. It just so happens that the Novak motor is the motor of choice.

Relying on ROAR to control the speed controls is in a different context of what they are responsible to for all the racers, keeping that technology equal being the bottom line.
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Old 12-05-2014, 02:43 PM   #8228
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I understand that there currently is not spec for 25.5t motors, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be. That's why I said submit one for approval. And it would only make sense that the current Novak motor be the basis for the spec, or at least fall within it. Since the objective is to grow the class, not alienate current drivers. There's no reason why USVTA can't lead the way and have ROAR adept it's spec motors.

Though it's inevitable that some will go off the rails, no matter how small a rule change is.
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Old 12-05-2014, 03:14 PM   #8229
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Originally Posted by hairless_ape View Post
I understand that there currently is not spec for 25.5t motors, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be. That's why I said submit one for approval. And it would only make sense that the current Novak motor be the basis for the spec, or at least fall within it. Since the objective is to grow the class, not alienate current drivers. There's no reason why USVTA can't lead the way and have ROAR adept it's spec motors.

Though it's inevitable that some will go off the rails, no matter how small a rule change is.
I believe that motors/specs have been submitted to ROAR. What they chose to do is up to them.
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Old 12-05-2014, 03:29 PM   #8230
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OMG..I just woke up and the saga continues... how many of you keyboard cowboys going to run some USVTA this weekend?....

why dont we take a break and just freaking race....and report back here Monday and give a brief report on your track and racing?...even post your results...pic would be good too...

Cya Sunday at Thunder RC Raceway in Nashville,TN....
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Old 12-05-2014, 03:54 PM   #8231
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I believe that motors/specs have been submitted to ROAR. What they chose to do is up to them.
That's correct. One of the ROAR directors is also doing a statistical analysis on the terminal resistance measurements of a sample of motors, as the 25.5 is to be the first wind to have a rule for minimum resistance.

But that info doesn't really fit into this USVTA thread, so please forgive this "FYI tidbit".
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Old 12-05-2014, 04:40 PM   #8232
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That's correct. One of the ROAR directors is also doing a statistical analysis on the terminal resistance measurements of a sample of motors, as the 25.5 is to be the first wind to have a rule for minimum resistance.

But that info doesn't really fit into this USVTA thread, so please forgive this "FYI tidbit".
Congrats Howard. I know you were pushing for that spec. It will be easy to tech motors to see if they are compliant with such a spec.
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Old 12-05-2014, 04:56 PM   #8233
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OMG..I just woke up and the saga continues... how many of you keyboard cowboys going to run some USVTA this weekend?....
I'll be running Outlaw VTA this weekend, using your setup from 2013 Southern Nationals as the basis of my setup. Will report back. Painting a 68 Camaro right now too.
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Old 12-05-2014, 05:12 PM   #8234
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I'll be running Outlaw VTA this weekend, using your setup from 2013 Southern Nationals as the basis of my setup. Will report back. Painting a 68 Camaro right now too.
cool, hope it helps....who else?...
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Old 12-05-2014, 05:24 PM   #8235
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no racing this weekend Tex as work took care of those plans, but here are pics of the vehicles we run prior to them getting some road rash and the swap over to USVTA electronics for this year.



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