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Old 12-01-2014, 07:43 AM   #8086
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Does anyone even know what a ROAR 25.5 is anyway? How are they going to tech spec motors that have no specs?

USVTA ALL DAY.
I think it would be a HUGE coup for ROAR if they adopted the USVTA battery limit and minimum weight rule, and left the 25.5 motor rule open.

Let me explain my reasoning.

Right now, cars built to the ROAR VTA rules are not legal for USVTA. So almost no chance of crossover participation.

Cars built to USVTA specs are LEGAL for ROAR VTA but NOT COMPETITIVE. So there is very little interest from USVTA participants from running ROAR VTA, unless they want to build a 2nd car just for ROAR VTA, which is an expensive proposition for most racers.

Now, if ROAR adopted the USVTA battery limit and minimum weight specification, it becomes a WIN-WIN situation.

Now, all USVTA cars become legal AND competitive in ROAR VTA. This would create an instant buzz and increase in ROAR VTA events, because the pool of available participants is hugely increased.

ROAR VTA cars would now be either legal for USVTA (if the motor used is a NOVAK motor) or could be very easily converted to USVTA with simple motor swap. Now a single car could be run in either ROAR or USVTA events with no cost (NOVAK motor to start with) or a simple swap.

The side benefit of this is that it would motivate ROAR to create a spec 25.5 motor list (a la USGT) and perhaps ultimately lead to a unification of the rules.

WIN - WIN.

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Old 12-01-2014, 07:46 AM   #8087
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Originally Posted by scirocco14 View Post
I think it would be a HUGE coup for ROAR if they adopted the USVTA battery limit and minimum weight rule, and left the 25.5 motor rule open.

Let me explain my reasoning.

Right now, cars built to the ROAR VTA rules are not legal for USVTA. So almost no chance of crossover participation.

Cars built to USVTA specs are LEGAL for ROAR VTA but NOT COMPETITIVE. So there is very little interest from USVTA participants from running ROAR VTA, unless they want to build a 2nd car just for ROAR VTA, which is an expensive proposition for most racers.

Now, if ROAR adopted the USVTA battery limit and minimum weight specification, it becomes a WIN-WIN situation.

Now, all USVTA cars become legal AND competitive in ROAR VTA. This would create an instant buzz and increase in ROAR VTA events, because the pool of available participants is hugely increased.

ROAR VTA cars would now be either legal for USVTA (if the motor used is a NOVAK motor) or could be very easily converted to USVTA with simple motor swap. Now a single car could be run in either ROAR or USVTA events with no cost (NOVAK motor to start with) or a simple swap.

The side benefit of this is that it would motivate ROAR to create a spec 25.5 motor list (a la USGT) and perhaps ultimately lead to a unification of the rules.

WIN - WIN.

Mark


I have to agree with this thought.
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Old 12-01-2014, 07:52 AM   #8088
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I guess to me the only thing I would be curious to see at least is how much down or up on power the novak motor is in comparison to other motors that are designated "25.5".

From what I saw when plain VTA was ran here, the one guy whose car looked like it was on another level was running trinity motors from what he told me this year.


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Old 12-01-2014, 07:56 AM   #8089
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I guess to me the only thing I would be curious to see at least is how much down or up on power the novak motor is in comparison to other motors that are designated "25.5".

From what I saw when plain VTA was ran here, the one guy whose car looked like it was on another level was running trinity motors from what he told me this year.

Agreed, hence my assertion that it would motivate ROAR to create an approved 25.5 motor list.

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Old 12-01-2014, 10:10 AM   #8090
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Agreed, hence my assertion that it would motivate ROAR to create an approved 25.5 motor list.

Mark
I've run several 25.5 motors on my dyno and my USVTA legal Novak BOSS at 45 degrees (Motorlyser timing) is as good or better than most of the others. Only one was marginally better and it was a hand build motor with ceramic bearings, certified stator, and a super-duper rotor. BTW the fastest VTA guy here in Texas, runs a USVTA legal car in our EOS series, which is an "any 25.5motor" series, and he is by far the fastest VTA car I've ever seen (this year he was almost 2 seconds a lap faster than the next fastest car). PS I checked his motor and it was one of the few Novak motors that the timing label was spot on 45 degrees according to the motolyser.
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Old 12-01-2014, 10:16 AM   #8091
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Agreed, hence my assertion that it would motivate ROAR to create an approved 25.5 motor list.

Mark
I'd really like to see the racing organizations get their rules in sync too. Also I've emailed ROAR about the 25.5 spec and got a quick reply that they were being developed, but when I followed up several months later about the status, I didn't get a reply.
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Old 12-01-2014, 10:29 AM   #8092
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Now, if ROAR adopted the USVTA battery limit and minimum weight specification, it becomes a WIN-WIN situation.
The minimum weight I agree on for sure. Or at the very least, have both camps agree on a weight (1500g ?).

As for ROAR adopting the battery capacity limitation that USVTA has, can't see it happening. I do have to say, it's kind of funny that USVTA is the heavier of the two cars, but with the lightest battery.

I've accepted the Novak motor (even if I can't find that "special" one, I get blasted on the straights) for USVTA. It's been reliable. Cramming a ton of weight into the car is a hassle too (are we really that worried about keeping cars that are totally obsolete in the fray?) but I do it for the sake of being part of an active series. Totally agreed that closing the gap between the two camps would only help VTA/USVTA grow even more. I as well as others would like to just have one car and be good to go.
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Old 12-01-2014, 10:35 AM   #8093
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Read this yesterday so when I was working on my cars today I decided to test this out.

Loosened up the screws on the motor and held the throttle wide open with one hand while I twisted the motor with the other. The "Max RPMs" point of the motor was with the mark WELL past the 45 point on the label. I'm talking like 65 or 70 before RPMs started to go down. It was actually fairly easy to eyeball max RPMs based on tire ballooning.

Also, each motor didn't hit this max RPM at the same spot so I'm in total agreement that the labels are crap.

So my question now is: Is max RPMs equal to "sweet spot"? Why would you run with less than max RPM other than heat?
+1 with Howard. My BOSS motor at 58 degrees ran great with no load (i.e., wheels off the ground), but when I sat it on the track it cogged so badly it needed a push to get the car started. Also the AMP draw might be too high at 60 or 70 degrees to make run time (we run 12 minute mains). Howard seems to be defining the sweet pot to be where max power occurs, other define it to be where the amp draw starts to jump exponentially. I've seen USGT cars with zero timing run just as fast as cars with the same motor with max timing (both great drivers with great cars) when geared correctly. After seeing that, I don't know any more what the sweet spot is or if there is such a thing.
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Old 12-01-2014, 10:43 AM   #8094
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The minimum weight I agree on for sure. Or at the very least, have both camps agree on a weight (1500g ?).

As for ROAR adopting the battery capacity limitation that USVTA has, can't see it happening. I do have to say, it's kind of funny that USVTA is the heavier of the two cars, but with the lightest battery.

I've accepted the Novak motor (even if I can't find that "special" one, I get blasted on the straights) for USVTA. It's been reliable. Cramming a ton of weight into the car is a hassle too (are we really that worried about keeping cars that are totally obsolete in the fray?) but I do it for the sake of being part of an active series. Totally agreed that closing the gap between the two camps would only help VTA/USVTA grow even more. I as well as others would like to just have one car and be good to go.
The 5000mah battery is lighter but the Novak motor is heavier than some of the other 25.5 motors (e.g., D4) out there. So depending on the motor/battery combo, the total weight difference may be minimal.
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Old 12-01-2014, 03:53 PM   #8095
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Well with some founders of USVTA sitting on ROARs board it isat least within the realm of possibility that a merging of the rules could happen.

Why would it be difficult to limit battery size for VTA? ROAR limits battety size for 4x4 SCT to 2s. 4s with low kv motors makes much more sense for SCT. So 5000 mah makes more sense for a spec class.

The question was asked and answered about endorsing one brand motor over another, and it was stated nothing is in the rules to not allow it.
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:59 PM   #8096
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can anybody tell me the benefit to the USVTA going with any 25.5 motor?
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Old 12-01-2014, 06:12 PM   #8097
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can anybody tell me the benefit to the USVTA going with any 25.5 motor?
This would allow the Whiners to move on to another aspect of USVTA that they don't agree with.
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Old 12-01-2014, 06:21 PM   #8098
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can anybody tell me the benefit to the USVTA going with any 25.5 motor?
None, really. I think one of the biggest factors of USVTA's success is the single manufacturer motor rule.

I was commenting on ROAR's VTA rules, and pointing out the opportunity that ROAR is missing out on. If there was this huge benefit of opening up the motor rules, this would be the opportunity for ROAR to prove it. Or disprove it.

But if I was on ROAR's board (and I am not), I would think that this is a huge opportunity to grow the ROAR VTA program with very little downside. Match the USVTA rules on weight, battery limits and vastly increase the pool of potential ROAR VTA racers.

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Old 12-01-2014, 08:55 PM   #8099
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are we really that worried about keeping cars that are totally obsolete in the fray?
Yes. They're not obsolete, they're just old. If I want to buy an older cheaper car and run (successfully) against newer $$$ cars.. I can. Someone gets a hand-me-down car or finds dads old car in the closet, they can (successfully) run the class. Want to spend a ton on a newer car? Go ahead.. but you really don't HAVE to. I like not knowing what I'm sometimes running against, it adds to the fun factor and I get to see some older cars I've either never seen or haven't seen in ages. When I run faster classes, it's the same two or three cars making up the bulk of the field. Still fun, but.. eh.
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Old 12-01-2014, 09:16 PM   #8100
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Yes. They're not obsolete, they're just old. If I want to buy an older cheaper car and run (successfully) against newer $$$ cars.. I can. Someone gets a hand-me-down car or finds dads old car in the closet, they can (successfully) run the class. Want to spend a ton on a newer car? Go ahead.. but you really don't HAVE to. I like not knowing what I'm sometimes running against, it adds to the fun factor and I get to see some older cars I've either never seen or haven't seen in ages. When I run faster classes, it's the same two or three cars making up the bulk of the field. Still fun, but.. eh.
You can get the only "old" cars with some degree of parts support left (xxxs, tc4/4...ran them all) under 1550g without too much effort. As well as others. On asphalt 1550g makes for some fast wearing tires.

I'm not arguing against the aspect of running older cars and having fun. Heck, I wish I still had my RDX. Eventually the old parts supply for antiquated cars dries up.

And yes, I have been a loyal USVTA guy. even when I show up to tracks where ROAR is the locals choice and I suffer with a heavy car. I make top-3 in these situations sometimes. Gonna' need another car though...roar & usvta rides to bring out depending on what's being run.
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