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Old 10-07-2014, 11:58 AM   #7906
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Unfortunately you can never satisfy every racer when you create rules for any class. The current set of USVTA rules exist because the people/person responsible for them feels that they best represent what the class should be.

As participants in this class we are free to express our opinions on how to improve it. However, no one individual racer's opinion or "2 cents" should carry more weight than other opinions. In fact Rob King's opinion is the only one that should carry any weight, since he is currently responsible for the rules.
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Old 10-07-2014, 12:11 PM   #7907
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Novak motors are fine, I can't complain.... agreed thought that we need to just ignore these timing decals altogether. Heck even if Novak did get every single one of them spot-on (which is proving to not be the case), the ways around this are obvious to anyone... find another endbell / decal combo. And what happens if you buy a spare endbell? Even if you wanted to be 100% accurate how are you going to do it? Simple solution is to use the decal as a sort of basic reference point, but let the user adjust as needed regardless of what it indicates. All this aside, I find the Novak 25.5 to be a durable motor for the class.
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Old 10-07-2014, 03:58 PM   #7908
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Sorry but after reading this post I didn't know whether to stand up and salute the Novak flag or just go into the corner and throw up!!! True Novak stepped up to the plate with the 25.5 motor (ATTA BOY BOB)! BTW how many years ago was that? Oh but I raced VTA before USVTA decided to go with a 25.5 motor that didn't exist instead of continuing to use the 21.5 motors that were already available. Nothing wrong with those 21.5 motors, it was the advent of the boosted ESCs that caused the early VTA class to get too fast. So from my perspective the 25.5 motor fixed a problem that USVTA created. But as far as spec racing goes the Novak 25.5 VTA motors provide far from a level playing field as intended. For example 1) they are almost impossible to tech for legality without a complete tear down (verified that with the NOVAK people). For our EOS races that allow any 25.5 motor I use a tuning rotor and there is no way to tell it unless you tear the motor down for inspection. (BTW I have that motor marked so I don't use it in a USVTA event). 2) the placement of the timing labels are subject to tampering with (or if that is too hard just swap out end bell assemblies with one that has the timing sticker in a better location for your motor (see Mr 75MHz post earlier this Spring). 3 even if you don't intend to cheat, the timing labels are placed inaccurately - I've seen Novak Ballistic motors with 45 degrees on the label that test as high as 58 degrees timing on my Motorlyser, others had less than 45 degrees, and a few were spot on. Maybe you think that is a level playing field for spec racers? I don't, perhaps because I can see on the dyno how much a few degrees of timing affects the performance of these VTA motors.

Sure but you also stated on just about every other motor forum that their timings marks aren't correct either. IE a wurks R1 reads 36 at the 30 mark. So whats your point??? Pick your poison they are all inaccurate. By your findings you could go on a fishing expedition for any motor to find the one with the most advanced timing variance.

So what motor can be accurately teched without having to take it apart? I don't think one of those exists.

As far as the motor/ESC wars you allege, we regularly have at least 10 USGT cars each weekend. I did a survey of the motors being used and found there have been at least 6 different OEM motors in a field of 10. All cars were running within 1 sec a lap on a big outdoor track at one of the biggest race series here in Texas (EOS). So to me there doesn't seem to be a "you have to have this motor to win". With correct timing and gearing, just about any 21.5 motor can win (even the $50 TrackStar is consistently at the top each week - holding its own against some big buck hand built motors). However, you had better be a very good driver and know how to set up your car (but aren't those the very skills we want to develop with spec racing)?

I admit I didn't check ESCs. However, in blinky mode with ROAR approved non timing software I don't see a big performance issue there and apparently neither does USVTA since they have opened up the ESC rule for USVTA (there are certainly advantages to using my Tekin Gen 2 ESCs instead of my HobbyWing Just Stock ESC, but improved on track performance isn't one of them).

So I don't buy either of your premises: As much as the USVTA zealots want to keep sticking their heads in the sand and pretending there aren't problems, Novak motors are not providing a good spec racing environment for the reasons I mention above; nor are the motor wars you prophesize occurring at least in USGT. I'm sure some fool(s) will go out and buy a $150+ hand built certified motor thinking it will make them more competitive - the real secret they don't want to hear (or admit) is they need to drive better with the motor they have. That and Paragon Black have been the same for the nearly 33 years I've been racing RC cars.

I know I'm going to be labeled as a Novak hater after this post, I'm not! While IMO the motor has serious warts from a spec racing perspective (i.e., level the playing field), it's actually a pretty good motor when it works correctly. If USVTA dropped the 45 degree timing rule, the Novak Ballistic motor would only have one serious problem that being the tech tear down to ensure its legal. The 45 degree rule penalizes those who have motors with less than 45 degrees timing and rewards those that have more than 45 degrees when the timing label says 45 degrees.

Just my 2 cents
You'd be far better off and more accurate using the upper left can screw and the sensor board opening on the left of the motor rather than the sticker to figure out what your timing is set at. At least thats what the Team guys do.
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Old 10-07-2014, 08:43 PM   #7909
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I can...lol
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Old 10-08-2014, 05:18 AM   #7910
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Have a couple of VTA Batteries for some one getting into new to VTA

VTA Batteries
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Old 10-08-2014, 02:07 PM   #7911
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I can...lol
If anyone is looking to get into this class I am selling an Awesome USVTA Setup - Schumacher Mi1 with upgrades I am just going to focus on USGT and 17.5 this season. It's very good at clearing a paths to victory. Right Darkside!
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:29 PM   #7912
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Originally Posted by Rodney Racer View Post
You'd be far better off and more accurate using the upper left can screw and the sensor board opening on the left of the motor rather than the sticker to figure out what your timing is set at. At least thats what the Team guys do.
That might help. I just checked my motor which is now timed at 45 degrees with the motorlyser (~35 degrees according to the timing label) and the endbell alignment is closer to the motors I tested that were spot on (i.e., see Mr 75 Mhz posts). However, it's the variation in the stator timing that is suppose to require the timing labels to be placed differently. So if that is true, as has been said many times by many people in this thread, how would your suggestion help and where/how would you determine 45 degrees to be?

Let me know and I'll see if it checks out on my 45 degree motor.
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:43 PM   #7913
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Novak motors are fine, I can't complain.... agreed thought that we need to just ignore these timing decals altogether. Heck even if Novak did get every single one of them spot-on (which is proving to not be the case), the ways around this are obvious to anyone... find another endbell / decal combo. And what happens if you buy a spare endbell? Even if you wanted to be 100% accurate how are you going to do it? Simple solution is to use the decal as a sort of basic reference point, but let the user adjust as needed regardless of what it indicates. All this aside, I find the Novak 25.5 to be a durable motor for the class.
Some might find it strange that I agree with nf_ekt, but the Novak 25.5 motor is a good motor (that's why I run it at "any 25.5 motor" events). But for the level playing field that ROBK wants for USVTA, the 45 degree rule has to go or there has to be other nearly fool proof ways to tech the timing that local clubs can afford (both in terms of $ and tech time).
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:58 PM   #7914
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you guys know there is never a completely level playing field?....same motor helps, and limited esc's did as well(blinky yuck)....but chassis servo battery and driver plus setup will make a difference...

One motor works...what more could you ask for...if you are having a issue at the club level...here is you easy fix

3 tabs on the motor where you solder your wires to....line them up with the 3 screws on the end bell....simple and gear how you like...
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Old 10-08-2014, 05:22 PM   #7915
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3 tabs on the motor where you solder your wires to....line them up with the 3 screws on the end bell....simple and gear how you like...
That would be past the end of the sticker on my current (purchased new, original everything) motor. With that being said, of the handful I've tinkered with I've not found one that's had it's sweet spot at (or over) 45 degrees.
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Old 10-08-2014, 05:58 PM   #7916
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That would be past the end of the sticker on my current (purchased new, original everything) motor. With that being said, of the handful I've tinkered with I've not found one that's had it's sweet spot at (or over) 45 degrees.
I had a Ballistic that was a dog, unless you geared it around 2.98 and cranked the timing past the "indicated" 45 degrees. The one I have now is much faster, even geared around 3.5 ..... with the timing decal showing about 42 degrees.

All I can say is that I don't believe the decal. Some may be spot on, but again toss a new stator and / or end bell at it and it's a different motor. Unless a serial number is going to be pressed into each individual component (I know that's not going to happen), again I don't believe in the timing decal. For big events, having a motolyser on hand so that competitors can verify true 45 degrees (and mark it on the end bell) could be one thing that helped. As for basic club racing, I'm simply ignoring it .
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Old 10-08-2014, 06:11 PM   #7917
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That would be past the end of the sticker on my current (purchased new, original everything) motor. With that being said, of the handful I've tinkered with I've not found one that's had it's sweet spot at (or over) 45 degrees.
the point is to give everyone at your "club" level a equal playing field set them all this way and go have fun
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Old 10-08-2014, 07:07 PM   #7918
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the point is to give everyone at your "club" level a equal playing field set them all this way and go have fun
That of course assumes the stators have approximately the same timing, which even Novak says isn't the case. Why not just say time the motor any way you want? That's even simpler.

I understand there is no such thing as a perfectly level playing field. But I'd rather get beaten by someone with superior driving and/or setup skills than someone who broke all the rules intended to make the playing field as level as possible just to bolster his/her flawed ego. At least then, I have the possibility of learning something useful from someone more talented than me.
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Old 10-08-2014, 07:30 PM   #7919
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I had a Ballistic that was a dog, unless you geared it around 2.98 and cranked the timing past the "indicated" 45 degrees. The one I have now is much faster, even geared around 3.5 ..... with the timing decal showing about 42 degrees.

All I can say is that I don't believe the decal. Some may be spot on, but again toss a new stator and / or end bell at it and it's a different motor. Unless a serial number is going to be pressed into each individual component (I know that's not going to happen), again I don't believe in the timing decal. For big events, having a motolyser on hand so that competitors can verify true 45 degrees (and mark it on the end bell) could be one thing that helped. As for basic club racing, I'm simply ignoring it .
I race on big outdoor tracks (150-180 ft straight). At "real" 45 degrees timing we run 3.6 to 4.0 FDR depending on how technical the track is and make time in 12 minute mains (with little fall off in lap times). Not sure what the sweet spot is, but based on my dyno I'm leaving a significant amount of useable performanc on the table when I time the motor at 45 degrees using the motorlyser. If I ran smaller tracks I might want lower the timing and amp draw to give the motor more torque and acceleration. But for our tracks, 45 degrees is not where I would time the motor if there wasn't a 45 degree limit.

PS If you still have that dog motor, would you send it to me. I'd like test it on my equipment - I'll return it if you want.

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Old 10-08-2014, 07:36 PM   #7920
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First off, yeah there definitely are 21.5 motors that are faster than others. I own a bunch of different motors and there is a difference. At last years Southern Nats, the ORCA motor was definitely fast, and this was obvious to the naked eye. At last year's Scale Nats, the Trackstar motor was surprisingly fast. Racing F1 at Tamiya races has also allowed me to see that there continue to be faster motors introduced all the time. R1 Wurks for example....

Anyway, the timing rule is going to go. Not because of any complaining on here. I should have changed the rules a while ago but I haven't gotten around to it. The SS motors are pretty much gone at this point, and that is the ONLY reason for the rule. Everybody is running off at the mouth like the rule was meant to keep parity individual motor to motor. No, it was only an attempt to keep from obsoleting the SS motors. Personally, if you want to blow your stuff up, have at it.

BTW we have dynos up north as well...
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