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Old 06-05-2014, 08:59 AM   #7396
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LOL - these are all pre-race inspections.
yep, my birds motors were inspected and sealed before racing got started

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Old 06-05-2014, 09:23 AM   #7397
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1. do you really believe novak dynos each and every motor it makes ?? why not provide the dyno results with the motor if you go through all the trouble of dynoing it in the first place.
2. if in fact they spend all that time dynoing each and every motor, what guarantee do you have that the sticker is exactly where it should be ... human error.
I don't recall anyone saying that Novak uses a dynamometer to place the timing sticker.
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Old 06-05-2014, 09:30 AM   #7398
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3. is the quality manufacturing so bad at novak that they have to dyno and hand apply stickers to there motors ?? ALL other manufactures are doing it the wrong way by laser etching the timing marks ... funny thing, they are the ones winning races, not novak.
you forgot to quote point 3
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Old 06-05-2014, 09:50 AM   #7399
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Novak has awesome resume. They win 100% of USVTA sanctioned races. They even have several national titles in that particular class.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:04 AM   #7400
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Novak has awesome resume. They win 100% of USVTA sanctioned races. They even have several national titles in that particular class.
haha correct ... 100% domination
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:18 AM   #7401
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Originally Posted by theproffesor View Post
Novak has awesome resume. They win 100% of USVTA sanctioned races. They even have several national titles in that particular class.
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haha correct ... 100% domination
if you two bitch so much about Novak and how they are the only legal motor - why do you both run the class??

and actually, proffessor - a couple of those 'national titles' in VTA have come at ROAR events with OPEN motors. I was at one and followed the other event closely

do you really want to see a 'motor of the week/event/month/second' mentality happening in this class as well? don't we all see that enough in 17.5 TC? or even USGT, since that's open 21.5 motors
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:26 AM   #7402
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Originally Posted by moparSRT View Post
you forgot to quote point 3
I didn't quote item 3 because your questions were not intended to gain or share knowledge. And the only people who could answer the first portion accurately are those that work at Novak.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:28 AM   #7403
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I don't recall anyone saying that Novak uses a dynamometer to place the timing sticker.
Agreed. Novak never mentioned the use of a dyno in placing the timing decals...

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Originally Posted by moparSRT View Post
you forgot to quote point 3
Laser-etching the timing marks simply means they won't move relative to the surface to which they're etched. This doesn't alter the fact that manufacturing tolerances will allow differences in timing between two "identical" motors. Ultimately, one could theoretically purchase a batch of motors to find one with more timing than another despite being timed identically using the etched timing marks.

While both methods have their faults, Novak is the only manufacturer that appears to be placing the label based on actual motor testing instead of by design specifications. Neither method changes the fact that you have to find the "sweet spot" for timing and gearing your motor while making those changes within the context of the rules, regardless of whose motor you're using.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:31 AM   #7404
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if you two bitch so much about Novak and how they are the only legal motor - why do you both run the class??

and actually, proffessor - a couple of those 'national titles' in VTA have come at ROAR events with OPEN motors. I was at one and followed the other event closely

do you really want to see a 'motor of the week/event/month/second' mentality happening in this class as well? don't we all see that enough in 17.5 TC? or even USGT, since that's open 21.5 motors
- who's bitching I like VTA and run it whenever I can.
- at a roar event you can run whatever timing you like so makes no difference where/how novak applied it
- we have run roar vta for over a year in florida now and sorry to dissapoint you but have not seen a 'motor of the week/event/month/second'.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:35 AM   #7405
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... Neither method changes the fact that you have to find the "sweet spot" for timing and gearing your motor while making those changes within the context of the rules, regardless of whose motor you're using.
exactly what we are discussing, with a rule limiting your timing you might never find that sweet spot ...
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Old 06-05-2014, 11:08 AM   #7406
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WOW!!! I make one obviously sarcastic remark in this whole series of comments and get viscorated. Thats what phycologist might label as being overly defensive because the opposision makes a valid point that cant otherwise be disproven except through intimidation. Novak may have a couple other titles as they do make a decent motor, but point is still accurate, isn't it.

As for the motor war issue, we too run ROAR rules and there is a plethora of motors being used. Viper, Novak, Trinity, Tekin, and others. No one motor has at this point proven to be dominant. I personally run Tekin stuff; RS SPEC, and 25.5 motor. At first the combo was a dog, and I was going to change to a Novak motor, but after some playing with the gearing, and timing, I found a setting that is a rocket out of the corners and on the straights. Not going back to Novak now unless I get to an official USVTA race.
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Old 06-05-2014, 11:12 AM   #7407
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Originally Posted by moparSRT View Post
exactly what we are discussing, with a rule limiting your timing you might never find that sweet spot ...
The "within the context of the rules" part of my previous statement implies that you have to find that spot without exceeding the marks on the label, which we've already established is being actively controlled by the manufacturer for parity between motors. It could be possible that no one finds the absolute best spot for timing, but with the restriction in place everyone is held to the same standard.
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Old 06-05-2014, 11:13 AM   #7408
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If memory serves me right, the 12.5 rotor has a slight undercut in the front bearing surface. The stock 12.3 does not.

You may or may not be able to see it without taking the motor apart.

As far as motor teardown, Myron and Dirla and the rest of their crew at the Southern Nats did a fine job. Every motor was torn down prior to qualifying and checked on Friday, measured, etc and deemed "legal" or not, then "sealed".

At the Scale Nats, we however, do not have the resources to accomplish this prior to the event. That does not necessarily mean I won't tear one down in an instant, should our non invasive testing require it.
Apparently I didn't talk to anyone who went to the Southern Nats, my bad! But I would expect any race that Mike is involved with would have a rigorous tech process. The tear down would catch the rotor issue; however, I'm not sure how it would catch the timing label issue, which my friend discovered while trying to figure out why my BOSS motor was COGGING so much.

I looked on the Novak website and the 12.5mm rotor appears to have a grove near the end of the back shaft, but to see it would require tearing down the motor to remove the back end bell and bearing cap. But a simple measurement of the rotor would give it away too. Also the 12.3mm SmCo rotor is easy to spot, if the motor is apart.

I talked with the tech people at Novak about this as I thought the different rotors were color coded on the end of the pinion shaft and was told no - in their opinion it would be too easy to just paint over the color to make a tuning rotor look like a stock rotor. Other than how the motor felt when rotating the shaft, they didn't have many ideas on teching for rotors, short of disassembling the motor.

I like USVTA but I don't take it too seriously because of the motor issues I'm aware of - it's a fun class but mostly just good practice to learn the track for my favorite class USGT. My purpose in writing that post was to alert the USVTA organization that there are other issues beside just ESCs (i.e., the motors and $800 cars) they need to consider when they rewrite the VTA part of their rule book. Nothing more nothing less. I suppose now that I do have a reasonably good and very legal BOSS motor they will change to another motor or open up the motor rule.

BTW the $800 is actually low, it's closer to $900

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Old 06-05-2014, 11:30 AM   #7409
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Timing marks are for the racer do decide how to, mostly for reference, set his timing. If I run my motor and the gearing seems right and the motor is too hot, I'll go down a couple degrees, usually enough to bring the temps down. With that in mind, the timing marks should continue for the full range of motion and not stop at 45*. The marks used are in relation to what the motor is doing at that moment in time. If my hall sensors are installed at factory 0*, but when adjusted actually lose physical timing Vs. the marks due to misprint, misplaced or mfg tolerances I'd never know it. My can says 45*, but everything shifted and my timing is actually physically 40* now. Will it make me faster knowing 45* is 45*. No. Putting it back to factory might now leave the motor at +5* of where it started. That setting only gives me peace of mind, not actual precise physical placement. Once you fiddle with the timing at all, the only way you know what your motor is doing is the dyno. I can find the sweet spot where @ 7.2V my motor is turning higher than stated RPMs at a higher KV than rated and the heat the unit is generating is at or below my desired operating temps. From there I can go up or down on gearing knowing the motor is right. In most cases opening a motor up, cranking the piss out of the timing and expecting a miracle to occur is the norm. NO testing. NO break in. Just crank it up and run it with really tall gears. I like smoke too, and the smell of burnt electronics.

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Old 06-05-2014, 11:55 AM   #7410
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Too bad because the point of putting the tuning rotor in the motor was to find out how/if you could determine that someone was using one of those Novak tuning rotors. I had hoped there would be an easy non invasive way that I could show our tech folks here how to check for this. If, as Novak had indicated, you could tell the difference between the tuning rotor and the legal rotor by turning the shaft, I needed a legal motor and a illegal motor so the tech people would know how each felt when you turned the shaft. But as it turned out, IMO that isn't a reliable way to tech for these tuning rotors. BTW that BOSS motor is clearly marked so I don't inadvertently put it in the car for a VTA race until I put the stock rotor back in. Until then I'm using it to experiment with how to use track data and my dyno data to select FDRs.
That's a lot of time and effort put into something with diminishing returns. If you spent that much time and energy on your own setup/practice/etc., wouldn't the results be far more tangible? Do you have less to gain than someone else has to lose? I'm not saying you're wrong for doing that, but I'd consider that to be to my advantage if I raced against you. At the end of the day, if someone has to cheat to beat me... so be it. It's still a hobby/toy car, my livelihood does not depend on this, and it's a compliment of sorts if someone has to resort to cheating to beat me. If it matters THAT much to them, they're more than welcome to take home the weekly bragging rights/plastic trophy/whatever. At a bigger race, tech away... but at a club race, eh. For everyone that wants to go hardcore with policing and debating rules and whatever you do with this hobby (and it is a hobby for MOST of us in here..) as long as you're having fun on some level...
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