View Poll Results: what's your tire choice?
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4318LikesU.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing Part 2
06-05-2014, 04:04 AM
#7381
06-05-2014, 05:16 AM
#7382
Can't wait for USVTA to post its new rules so you all can get on to something beside speculating about what might happen and start complaining about what did happen. Actually I'd prefer something more stimulating such as a good discussion of how to make these VTA cars go faster and handle better.
There are certainly a lot of technical issues with ESCs that the USVTA organization is concerned about, IMO perhaps overly so. If ESCs can be programmed with different software like the Hobby Wing Just Stock, that should not necessarily mean that they should be illegal for USVTA. Particularly if its easy to demonstrate what version of the software is being used and if that version has been tested and shown that is doesn't provide an advantage. Oh and BTW if that ESC is illegal for USVTA, why then would the same sanctioning body deem that same ESC to be legal to use for USGT (e.g., the Tekin RS Pro with V228 software)?
However, there are also significant technical issues with the BOSS motor of choice that USVTA seems to overlook either by neglect or by design. For example, the only tech inspection on the BOSS that I'm aware of that is being done is to look to see if the timing label and the timing mark are aligned so that it appears that the motor has no more than 45 degrees of timing. However, there are significant differences on where that timing label is placed on the timing ring (as much as 10%). This variation in placement is explained by manufacturing tolerances so that the placement corrects for differences in the actual zero timing point of that stator. The basic problem, however, is that there is no way to know if this timing ring goes with that stator. By simply switching parts on the BOSS motor you can get close to 50 degrees of timing and the label will still show 45 degrees. My dyno says at 45 degrees that my BOSS motor wants more timing than 45 degrees and at ~50 degrees it's way better than it was at 45 degrees. The next basic problem with the motor is that there is no fool proof way to tech the rotor to be sure it is the stock BOSS rotor without disassembling the motor and inspecting/measuring the rotor. I've talked to many racers and no one can recall any VTA motor being disassembled at any major USVTA race. I raced at a lot of ROAR national and other big races and it was common to see many if not all of the A main stock brushed motors being disassembled and even the armature wires unwound counted and measued. Novak says you can tell the difference in rotors by how easily the motor spins. I can tell you I have a tuning rotor in one of my boss motors and its very difficult to tell the legal one from the other, at least it's not enough that I would be confident to call someone a cheater by just spinning the shaft - I can with my dyno, but not by spinning the shaft.
So I hope if USVTA does make some rule changes that they address both the ESC and motor issues. I love VTA, but to be honest right now because of the motor issues I mentioned, I run USVTA primarily to get track time for racing USGT where I feel I'm on a much more of a level playing field and my driving skills (or lack there of) are the primary factor for my finishes. We run two series here in Texas (AROCS and EOS) and for VTA both of these series allow any ROAR blinky ESC (i.e., zero timing) or any ESC on the USVTA list and any 25.5 motor (I'd say ROAR approved 25.5 but there aren't any on the ROAR approved list). I personnaly haven't found a noticeable difference in ESCs on the list and those with legal blinky software; but I sure have found a big difference in motors and a non BOSS motor gave me enough HP to finally keep up and even be racy with some of the faster BOSS motors.
So I ask you, what is more costly having a motor war where you buy three different brands of motors trying to find the best one, or having a motor war where you buy three of the same brand motor trying to find the best one? If USVTA is really concerned about the cost of racing, then be concern with people buying $800 cars and running them in VTA. Just my 2 cents
There are certainly a lot of technical issues with ESCs that the USVTA organization is concerned about, IMO perhaps overly so. If ESCs can be programmed with different software like the Hobby Wing Just Stock, that should not necessarily mean that they should be illegal for USVTA. Particularly if its easy to demonstrate what version of the software is being used and if that version has been tested and shown that is doesn't provide an advantage. Oh and BTW if that ESC is illegal for USVTA, why then would the same sanctioning body deem that same ESC to be legal to use for USGT (e.g., the Tekin RS Pro with V228 software)?
However, there are also significant technical issues with the BOSS motor of choice that USVTA seems to overlook either by neglect or by design. For example, the only tech inspection on the BOSS that I'm aware of that is being done is to look to see if the timing label and the timing mark are aligned so that it appears that the motor has no more than 45 degrees of timing. However, there are significant differences on where that timing label is placed on the timing ring (as much as 10%). This variation in placement is explained by manufacturing tolerances so that the placement corrects for differences in the actual zero timing point of that stator. The basic problem, however, is that there is no way to know if this timing ring goes with that stator. By simply switching parts on the BOSS motor you can get close to 50 degrees of timing and the label will still show 45 degrees. My dyno says at 45 degrees that my BOSS motor wants more timing than 45 degrees and at ~50 degrees it's way better than it was at 45 degrees. The next basic problem with the motor is that there is no fool proof way to tech the rotor to be sure it is the stock BOSS rotor without disassembling the motor and inspecting/measuring the rotor. I've talked to many racers and no one can recall any VTA motor being disassembled at any major USVTA race. I raced at a lot of ROAR national and other big races and it was common to see many if not all of the A main stock brushed motors being disassembled and even the armature wires unwound counted and measued. Novak says you can tell the difference in rotors by how easily the motor spins. I can tell you I have a tuning rotor in one of my boss motors and its very difficult to tell the legal one from the other, at least it's not enough that I would be confident to call someone a cheater by just spinning the shaft - I can with my dyno, but not by spinning the shaft.
So I hope if USVTA does make some rule changes that they address both the ESC and motor issues. I love VTA, but to be honest right now because of the motor issues I mentioned, I run USVTA primarily to get track time for racing USGT where I feel I'm on a much more of a level playing field and my driving skills (or lack there of) are the primary factor for my finishes. We run two series here in Texas (AROCS and EOS) and for VTA both of these series allow any ROAR blinky ESC (i.e., zero timing) or any ESC on the USVTA list and any 25.5 motor (I'd say ROAR approved 25.5 but there aren't any on the ROAR approved list). I personnaly haven't found a noticeable difference in ESCs on the list and those with legal blinky software; but I sure have found a big difference in motors and a non BOSS motor gave me enough HP to finally keep up and even be racy with some of the faster BOSS motors.
So I ask you, what is more costly having a motor war where you buy three different brands of motors trying to find the best one, or having a motor war where you buy three of the same brand motor trying to find the best one? If USVTA is really concerned about the cost of racing, then be concern with people buying $800 cars and running them in VTA. Just my 2 cents
If memory serves me right, the 12.5 rotor has a slight undercut in the front bearing surface. The stock 12.3 does not.
You may or may not be able to see it without taking the motor apart.
As far as motor teardown, Myron and Dirla and the rest of their crew at the Southern Nats did a fine job. Every motor was torn down prior to qualifying and checked on Friday, measured, etc and deemed "legal" or not, then "sealed".
At the Scale Nats, we however, do not have the resources to accomplish this prior to the event. That does not necessarily mean I won't tear one down in an instant, should our non invasive testing require it.
06-05-2014, 05:17 AM
#7383
That link was a response to a question I asked a while back. While I thank the idividual for the respose , it still is very subjective. For starters not everyone has or wants a Novak ESC. Secondly, listening for pitch has a huge tolerance range. There could be be a vast difference in RPM's within what is the same audible pitch. Plus I dont think I could argue pitch at a tech station.
06-05-2014, 05:18 AM
#7384
I've talked to many racers and no one can recall any VTA motor being disassembled at any major USVTA race. I raced at a lot of ROAR national and other big races and it was common to see many if not all of the A main stock brushed motors being disassembled and even the armature wires unwound counted and measued.
....that's my motor teching experience....torn down 3 times last year.
06-05-2014, 05:37 AM
#7385
Well, my motor was disassembled and tech'd at 2013 US Southern Nationals. I have also had my motor disassembled and tech'd at Mike Boylan's Southern Oval Nats and his Turkey Shoot race, both in 2012 where USVTA rules were used for some carpet oval racing. Nothing like the fun of a 68 Camaro running in circles!
....that's my motor teching experience....torn down 3 times last year.
....that's my motor teching experience....torn down 3 times last year.
06-05-2014, 05:41 AM
#7386
That link was a response to a question I asked a while back. While I thank the idividual for the respose , it still is very subjective. For starters not everyone has or wants a Novak ESC. Secondly, listening for pitch has a huge tolerance range. There could be be a vast difference in RPM's within what is the same audible pitch. Plus I dont think I could argue pitch at a tech station.
The technique may work with other controllers that can give full reverse, but I haven't got any other USVTA ESCs here to try. If a Justock comes in for testing, I'll post my results here.
I think the tech guys just check the timing mark against the sticker. I haven't heard of anyone checking the sticker position, although it might be a good idea.
Well, my motor was disassembled and tech'd at 2013 US Southern Nationals. I have also had my motor disassembled and tech'd at Mike Boylan's Southern Oval Nats and his Turkey Shoot race, both in 2012 where USVTA rules were used for some carpet oval racing. Nothing like the fun of a 68 Camaro running in circles!
....that's my motor teching experience....torn down 3 times last year.
....that's my motor teching experience....torn down 3 times last year.
06-05-2014, 05:48 AM
#7387
Tech Regular
iTrader: (11)
I dont need to cheat... I'm already terrible, going faster just makes me hit things harder.
all bodies must have chrome bumpers, all windows must be tinted, you must have two numbers on the hood, doors, and trunk... you must run LED headlights and working tail lights. AND you must have a spec exhaust sound maker now!
all bodies must have chrome bumpers, all windows must be tinted, you must have two numbers on the hood, doors, and trunk... you must run LED headlights and working tail lights. AND you must have a spec exhaust sound maker now!
06-05-2014, 05:59 AM
#7388
how they going to that and enforce it, they are randomly placed by novak, I have 2 ballistics and the placment is off by 1mm between the 2.
If I was told by tech that my sticker is in the wrong place then novak should replace my motor, right ?
If I was told by tech that my sticker is in the wrong place then novak should replace my motor, right ?
06-05-2014, 06:31 AM
#7389
Many pages ago, didn't a Novak representative explain that the stickers aren't randomly placed, but placed based on actual testing of the motor to verify the proper location of the sticker? This practice, if I understood things correctly, prevents differences in manufacturing tolerances from allowing someone to get the competitive advantage by finding a motor that is better than most.
06-05-2014, 06:34 AM
#7390
Edit: Beat to the punch by oeoeo327!
Son of Edit: http://www.rctech.net/forum/13043213-post6312.html
Two data points: http://www.rctech.net/forum/13040462-post6267.html
Bride of Edit: Keep in mind that the motor's peak power output doesn't change nearly as much as the RPM does when the timing is changed.
06-05-2014, 07:01 AM
#7391
Howard, the line was long at Nashville and I got a little bored so by the time it got looked at, to be honest, I don't know if they checked the sticker location or not. At the 2 oval races in 2013, it was not looked at.
You kinda reminded me, I was also tech'd at another time at one of Mike's oval series races back in January of this year. Again, the sticker was not considered.
Gonna run the ROAR Nats in Kissimmee this year and going to Nashville again this year as well, so I expect there will be more teardowns to come - LOL
You kinda reminded me, I was also tech'd at another time at one of Mike's oval series races back in January of this year. Again, the sticker was not considered.
Gonna run the ROAR Nats in Kissimmee this year and going to Nashville again this year as well, so I expect there will be more teardowns to come - LOL
06-05-2014, 07:12 AM
#7392
Will be in use at southern nationals http://www.motolyser.com/wp/?page_id=114
Motolyser
Read out the timing advance of your motor endbel
Identify the sensor alignmet for each of the three Hall Sesor element
Read out the RMS current for each motor phase
View the Hall Sensor status in display in real-time
The measurements are presented in a 128x32 pixel graphical LED-backlit LCD display while you control the motor speed using a touch wheel panel
About
The Motolyser is a precision tool that is designed to get a complete overview of your motor performance. It is able to measure the K/V , RPM, and current draw like most motor testers.
The Motolyser is not like other motor testers, you are also able to measure sensor accuracy. This is especially important in Blinky Mode racing, where the speed controller directly rely on the sensor signals from the motor. The commutation accuracy is 100% related to the sensor alignment.
The accuracy and alignment of the sensor is crucial for motor performance. By getting this right the motor can be tuned with maximum timing advanced, without overheating. The Motolyser can be used to tune every motor to perfection.
Specification
Input voltage: 3.4V - 8.6V
128x32 pixel graphical LCD display
Touch panel control
Dimension: 25mm X 73mm X 117mm
Support Sensored Brushless motors
Motolyser
Read out the timing advance of your motor endbel
Identify the sensor alignmet for each of the three Hall Sesor element
Read out the RMS current for each motor phase
View the Hall Sensor status in display in real-time
The measurements are presented in a 128x32 pixel graphical LED-backlit LCD display while you control the motor speed using a touch wheel panel
About
The Motolyser is a precision tool that is designed to get a complete overview of your motor performance. It is able to measure the K/V , RPM, and current draw like most motor testers.
The Motolyser is not like other motor testers, you are also able to measure sensor accuracy. This is especially important in Blinky Mode racing, where the speed controller directly rely on the sensor signals from the motor. The commutation accuracy is 100% related to the sensor alignment.
The accuracy and alignment of the sensor is crucial for motor performance. By getting this right the motor can be tuned with maximum timing advanced, without overheating. The Motolyser can be used to tune every motor to perfection.
Specification
Input voltage: 3.4V - 8.6V
128x32 pixel graphical LCD display
Touch panel control
Dimension: 25mm X 73mm X 117mm
Support Sensored Brushless motors
06-05-2014, 07:52 AM
#7395
Many pages ago, didn't a Novak representative explain that the stickers aren't randomly placed, but placed based on actual testing of the motor to verify the proper location of the sticker? This practice, if I understood things correctly, prevents differences in manufacturing tolerances from allowing someone to get the competitive advantage by finding a motor that is better than most.
2. if in fact they spend all that time dynoing each and every motor, what guarantee do you have that the sticker is exactly where it should be ... human error.
3. is the quality manufacturing so bad at novak that they have to dyno and hand apply stickers to there motors ?? ALL other manufactures are doing it the wrong way by laser etching the timing marks ... funny thing, they are the ones winning races, not novak.
