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Old 05-07-2014, 04:12 PM   #7081
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See, this is ridiculous. Why would the blinky only, can't run boost/timing at all, Justock be up for demotion when Novak themselves are sending out ESCs with new boards that CAN run timing?

Just solder in a new board, say its an older GTB2 that doesn't blinky, and you've got adjustable boost/timing in your car.

But somehow these ESCs aren't even being debated because you can't update the firmware. Why update the firmware when you can just replace the whole board and nobody would know?
Well, as described below, said board is no longer available to be soldered in... but should we ban the gtb2 because there is that remote possibility that a few of the modified ones are still roaming around? This is where I agree that the HW is being targeted. When no such boost profile has ever existed.
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:19 PM   #7082
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And I agree with you. Going after the Justock isn't the answer. There has never been, nor will there ever be timing on the Justock. Heck, Hobbywing basically designed it for the VTA class, if you really think about it.

But now how do you figure out who has an illegal GTB2? Can't exactly hook it up to a PC like the Justock and see what it's doing.
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:19 PM   #7083
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FYI, The HW Justock can be flashed, but the hardware to support the timing firmware is not in place. In other words, just because you can load the software doesn't mean it will run your ESC. In most cases you will fry your ESC or get really crappy performance out of it. I sent Rob the Justock 3 years ago to have a look and it was rejected at that time. I was surprised to see it allowed later, but thought that was cool for the class. I run the Justock in F1 and have no performance issues. To add to this the MFG even states something line this in the manual: the ESC will never be anything other than zero timing. The one update they did put out was to improve brake strength and it did. I still have and run a Cirtix in my VTA cars just to avoid conflict.

Back Flashing? Is that like trying to load Windows 95 on a Windows 7 machine and expecting a performance gain?
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:32 PM   #7084
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the board no longer for sale. Novak

the software is no longer available. Tekin

While board was still available, sanctioning body knowingly left esc on approved list and it remain on there now. Novak

Because of "possiblity" of backloading no longer available software that is also actively blocked, ESC has no chance of approval. Tekin

Esc's and boards can still be found fairly easily that allow timing but look legal. Novak

No known ablilty to add timing other than said rumor of backdating software. Tekin

90% of esc's an 100% of motor that are legal. Novak

No legal esc's or motors. Tekin

Releasing a new esc that has rumor (and most likely will) of getting approved almost immeadiatly. Novak

Released an ESC that has gone through over 6 months of testing only to not only not get approved, but get the companies integrity questioned. Tekin

Releases a new VTA motor out of the blue and drops old approved motor off inventory, only to have new motor instantly approved. Novak (to be fair on this on the boss is just a balistic with vented endbells)

Has 25.5 motor that isnt even allowed to be tested. Everyone else

Has none of these issues but is still on chopping block. Hobbywing.

Am I the only one seeing a pattern
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:38 PM   #7085
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I have an Edge sitting here.

With that being said... my recap for the previous weeks festivities seems to run like this: My Tekin Spec that I'd been hoping for, but figured wouldn't happen, won't happen - for the predictable reason. My GTB2 that I've BEEN running in one car since last year may now not be legal, for roughly the same (timing/firmware/etc.) reason as the Tekin not being approved. The Justock in our other car WAS legal, but again..., may now not be - the Tekin/timing/firmware thing again. The Edge that's sitting here not in ANYthing, that I'd BEEN planning on selling, is now possibly the only legal thing we'll have (until the next revelation today or tomorrow or...)

Anyone read a good tragic comedy lately?
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:41 PM   #7086
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Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
FYI, The HW Justock can be flashed, but the hardware to support the timing firmware is not in place.
Dynamic timing does not require any additional hardware. It can be done in software only.

But I don't know of any instance where the Justock has actually had dynamic timing.
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:43 PM   #7087
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Am I the only one seeing a pattern
I see a pattern... (potential) cheaters are dorks that ruin it for the other 99%+ of us.

They're still toy cars, last I checked
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:55 PM   #7088
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Well as of right now The HW is not banned. Robk only mentioned that he feels like maybe he should. The GTB2 is still on the legal list and the Tekin is not. I really don't see the need for panic.

Has anyone had any experience with the HW Justock, The GTB2, or the Tekin Spec being used on any track ever with cheater technology envoked? Ever? Ever, ever, ever?
We should not borrow trouble from tomorrow.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:20 PM   #7089
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We should not borrow trouble from tomorrow.

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Old 05-07-2014, 05:22 PM   #7090
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Has anyone had any experience with the HW Justock, The GTB2, or the Tekin Spec being used on any track ever with cheater technology envoked? Ever? Ever, ever, ever?
Who knows, but it's the easy way out for far too many people - the "I lost because (X) cheated" reasoning. No, you usually do NOT lose for any other reason than someone else simply performed better on any given day. I don't know if I've ever run a perfect race.. there's always a mistake (or five, or ten) that usually are pretty directly related to where I finish - when you finish out front, those are usually the 'magic' runs.. you found the groove and everything clicked. On the flip side, the people in front of me in those same races where I'm not victorious have usually made fewer mistakes. Even if you DO cheat, you still have to have enough talent/setup/skill to have it make a difference. Even if someone DID cheat, I probably had ample opportunity to nullify that small difference on my own more often than not.. practice, setup, consistency.. as needed.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:45 PM   #7091
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@theprofessor

Yup, very easy trend to spot here. Remember how no upgrades could be done to motors? Then the Boss came out and 2 days later you could legally mod the old ones to accommodate new Novak stuff. Meanwhile HW, Tekin, Schuur Speed, Trinity, etc all enter the VTA market with 25.5 motors but nobody looks at them.

I never understood the favoritism towards only Novak products for VTA.

There are two ways to go about this, I think.

1) Make it a TRUE stock class. 1 motor, 1 ESC ONLY, and in the "Spirit of VTA" use the cheapest ESC/motor combo you can buy. Wasn't the point of VTA to have even racing at low cost?

2) ROAR approved motors/ESCs. Any approved ESC and motor. Maybe have the stipulation of no tuning rotors or something, idk, or maybe have each race set an FDR limit based on the track.

This halfway stuff just pisses people off. My vote is for number 2.
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Old 05-07-2014, 06:14 PM   #7092
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Originally Posted by hyujmn View Post
There are two ways to go about this, I think.

1) Make it a TRUE stock class. 1 motor, 1 ESC ONLY, and in the "Spirit of VTA" use the cheapest ESC/motor combo you can buy. Wasn't the point of VTA to have even racing at low cost?

2) ROAR approved motors/ESCs. Any approved ESC and motor. Maybe have the stipulation of no tuning rotors or something, idk, or maybe have each race set an FDR limit based on the track.

This halfway stuff just pisses people off. My vote is for number 2.
For #1 you can look at the success of the ETS series... spec esc and motors for their pro stock and formula 1 classes. Round 2 of the series had over 200 cars in the pro stock class alone!

#2 is also logical, let the major sanctioning body determine the legality of a esc in blinky. You hardly ever hear of esc issues in stock classes. The list of USVTA esc's has dramatically dwindled down to nearly everything being out of production. If people think it will turn into a motor of the week class, look at the stock touring car classes. You either ran the D3.5 or you ran something slower. It was the motor of the year(s). The same thing will happen with the 25.5's. One will prove to be .1-.2 quicker than the rest and everyone will flock to that.
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Old 05-07-2014, 06:25 PM   #7093
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Yup, we're lucky here in the US to even get 150 racers total, and they have 200 in a single class.

People run all kinds of different ESCs in stock 17.5. HW, Orca, Tekin, Viper but nobody says, "OMG they're illegal!" They just run what they've got. Why can't it be that way in VTA?
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Old 05-07-2014, 07:07 PM   #7094
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If people think it will turn into a motor of the week class, look at the stock touring car classes. You either ran the D3.5 or you ran something slower. It was the motor of the year(s). The same thing will happen with the 25.5's. One will prove to be .1-.2 quicker than the rest and everyone will flock to that.
The problem now is that there is no d3.5 to automatically pick. The 3.5 was faster due to a gray area of the rules being exploited and it was clearly faster than everything else. You bought it, didnt think about it, and never worried about it and it was nice (the way the motor rule is now in vta)

Now, for the last month, everyone has been trying to figure out what is the fastest legal motor now. So far I have purchased (2) motors for 17.5 to decide from, and I havent covered every feasable option yet. I have an Orca and a R1Wurks (one i put in for small tight tracks, the other goes in for big fast tracks)....but I got beat by an orion vst2 motor....so maybe i need one of those. So now thats 3 motors in a month I have purchased. And i havent tried a trinity motor yet, maybe we should make that 4 in a month.

While for my 25.5 motor, i bought one. just one, 2 years ago, USED, from a guy i didnt know, off of the RCtech classifieds for 50$. I just finished up winning the USVTA triple crown and finishing 2nd at the scale nats (as well as 3rd at the southern nats) with that one used motor. If someone is faster than me at those races, its because their setup or driving is better. I dont have to worry about running over to see what motor they have in the car, the running to the track hobby shop and HOPE they have one in stock. Otherwise, i spend 500$ plus to travel to a big race and I am just automatically spotting guys a tenth or two becuase I cant get the fast motor of the month. Trust me, it will happen as its happening right now in stock. The motor rule is fine as it is, its actually great for the class. How many people right now would drop out of vta if they had to spend 90$ on a brand new brand X 25.5 because its the fastest one out now (and thats making the fairy tale assumption that there is only one motor that is clearly a tenth or more faster than the others.)
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Old 05-07-2014, 07:21 PM   #7095
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The problem now is that there is no d3.5 to automatically pick. The 3.5 was faster due to a gray area of the rules being exploited and it was clearly faster than everything else. You bought it, didnt think about it, and never worried about it and it was nice (the way the motor rule is now in vta)

Now, for the last month, everyone has been trying to figure out what is the fastest legal motor now. So far I have purchased (2) motors for 17.5 to decide from, and I havent covered every feasable option yet. I have an Orca and a R1Wurks (one i put in for small tight tracks, the other goes in for big fast tracks)....but I got beat by an orion vst2 motor....so maybe i need one of those. So now thats 3 motors in a month I have purchased. And i havent tried a trinity motor yet, maybe we should make that 4 in a month.

While for my 25.5 motor, i bought one. just one, 2 years ago, USED, from a guy i didnt know, off of the RCtech classifieds for 50$. I just finished up winning the USVTA triple crown and finishing 2nd at the scale nats (as well as 3rd at the southern nats) with that one used motor. If someone is faster than me at those races, its because their setup or driving is better. I dont have to worry about running over to see what motor they have in the car, the running to the track hobby shop and HOPE they have one in stock. Otherwise, i spend 500$ plus to travel to a big race and I am just automatically spotting guys a tenth or two becuase I cant get the fast motor of the month. Trust me, it will happen as its happening right now in stock. The motor rule is fine as it is, its actually great for the class. How many people right now would drop out of vta if they had to spend 90$ on a brand new brand X 25.5 because its the fastest one out now (and thats making the fairy tale assumption that there is only one motor that is clearly a tenth or more faster than the others.)
+1 michael. well said.
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