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Old 05-06-2014, 05:11 PM   #7021
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Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
Not necessarily. I don't know much about the Justock, and have never used one, so let's create a hypothetical situation:

A manufacturer releases a new ESC, and has it approved by ROAR. Later, the manufacturer releases a new version of software to add features for crawling. The manufacturer may decide to not submit the new software to ROAR, since there is already a software version that racers can legally use at ROAR events.

This puts the onus on the tech inspectors to verify that the correct software is used at ROAR events.

Of course, none of this affects USVTA, and I hope everyone forgives me for this quick diversion from the subject of the thread.
True, they should.

That doesn't mean they would or will.

It also puts the strain on clubs running under ROAR VTA rules to make sure that all flashable ESC's have the proper firmware installed, not just that the proper lights are blinking. So, for our friends in Florida, the soup they have to stir just got even thicker in an already difficult situation for them.

In my mind, for VTA, only V1 would be acceptable. Even though V3-508 is listed for all other Hobbywing product.
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Old 05-06-2014, 05:22 PM   #7022
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LOL
blinky is blinky, neither Tekin or HW have software for cralers or anything else that has tons of boost and pretends to be in blinky ... Creating such software would ban these manufactures from ROAR for 12 months.
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Old 05-06-2014, 05:28 PM   #7023
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Originally Posted by ercwhtsd View Post
True, they should.

That doesn't mean they would or will.

It also puts the strain on clubs running under ROAR VTA rules to make sure that all flashable ESC's have the proper firmware installed, not just that the proper lights are blinking. So, for our friends in Florida, the soup they have to stir just got even thicker in an already difficult situation for them.

In my mind, for VTA, only V1 would be acceptable. Even though V3-508 is listed for all other Hobbywing product.
I guess I still don't see the issue. Non-timing means non-timing. The ESC is designed/marketed so that it cannot be flashed to add boost / turbo, ect. They don't have a blinky mode, it's always in "blinky". What does a firmware update create? A slightly different feel, maybe better brakes than the previous version, ect. Every time Novak puts out a new ESC, it certainly has some type of improvement over previous profiles. if it didn't, what would be the point of releasing something new? With weight being such a big deal, it's not like we are worried about smaller and lighter. And it's well known that lots of old Novak's still race in VTA. One should not be "faster" than the other... there is no timing. So if HW offers updated/improved profiles (again- zero timing) then basically we have the option of trying these without buying a whole new ESC. Has anyone proved that some "outlaw" profile exists for the Justock? I admit I don't know enough about ESC design to prove that you can't add boost to the HW, but my understanding is that they can't support such a feature in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong. I stir not!
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Old 05-06-2014, 05:45 PM   #7024
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Yeah, I'm not sure on the technical side of programming them either. But they have a program card for them and I think that kind of opens the door to some shady stuff. I really doubt if a modded/hacked firmware would ever hit the public, they'd lose the edge if it did. Again, I have no clue how or even if anyone has. I think ROAR's concern is that it's remotely possible now, if it truly even is. I'm sure the powers that be are in contact with Hobbywing getting the real scoop.
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Old 05-06-2014, 05:57 PM   #7025
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Serious question, are only the Novak ceramic bearings legal, or can I buy some $30+ ceramics from somewhere else?
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:01 PM   #7026
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Originally Posted by PROMODVETTE View Post
Serious question, are only the Novak ceramic bearings legal, or can I buy some $30+ ceramics from somewhere else?
Per rules: "Using ceramic bearings in the motor makes you a dork."

So if you want to be a dork use whatever ones you want...
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:03 PM   #7027
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... I think ROAR's concern is that it's remotely possible now...
USVTA baning the Justock has nothing to do with ROAR, RobK/KevinK posted that the TEKIN SPEC will not be legal because the user can update the software(non-timing only).
Maybe they forgot the Justock they made legal 2 years ago has the same option ... so now they want to ban it.

Go back a few pages and you will find the discusion.
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:07 PM   #7028
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Per rules: "Using ceramic bearings in the motor makes you a dork."

So if you want to be a dork use whatever ones you want...
heh
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:08 PM   #7029
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Per rules: "Using ceramic bearings in the motor makes you a dork."

So if you want to be a dork use whatever ones you want...
The rules also say :
No modifications or optional parts allowed on motor can, endbell, stator, or rotor, other than the Boss #5925 Ballistic 540 Vented Endbell/Bearing Racing Upgrade Kit (replacement) .

ceramic bearing are not factory installed so they are a optional part and by installing them you are modifying the motor ...
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:10 PM   #7030
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Originally Posted by moparSRT View Post
The rules also say :
No modifications or optional parts allowed on motor can, endbell, stator, or rotor, other than the Boss #5925 Ballistic 540 Vented Endbell/Bearing Racing Upgrade Kit (replacement) .

ceramic bearing are not factory installed so they are a optional part and by installing them you are modifying the motor ...
This is what I was getting at.... its not clear if they are actually legal or must use Novak's product or anything goes.
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:11 PM   #7031
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Here it is:
We did not allow the Hobbywing Justock at first. It was probably out for a year before it was allowed. It was not allowed for the exact reason that it was able to be reflashed with new software. Time went by and as far as I knew, they never had new software. We wound up making it legal since it was cheap and I figured de facto non programmable as I had never seen any new software and beyond that, there was never any reports by anyone of questionable performance. So now it sounds like I may have to piss everyone off and take it off the list.

The Tekin is similar to the HW. It is definitely re programmable, as they advertise the ability to update with the latest versions of their software. That is definitely not within the rules we have defined. A rejection is also no reflection on their products, which are high quality and well supported. I have been delaying my decision on this because I know the backlash will be huge, especially in light of the Hobbywing. It is not something I want to do since I know there are so many Tekin supporters.

As far as the weight, I'm not inclined to change anything. Like Kevin said, it makes the cars easier to handle, and there is also not a perception that a car has to be 1380g. There's still plenty of tub cars out there. You can use a full sized servo if you want, and a big receiver without penalty. Or perhaps a sweet sound system that goes vroom vroom...

The other problem with the weight is that some bodies weight more than others, because they are heavier material, or 3 piece or whatever. The last thing that needs to happen is accidentally electing lighter bodies to must have status because the weight was dropped.

There have been calls in the past to ban all graphite plate cars. There have been requests for a minimum age ("over 3 years old", etc.). There has never been a limitation on chassis, or driver for that matter. There has to be a middle ground so everybody can participate.
Last I've heard. They didn't really "forget" that it was updatable, it just hadn't received an update at that time.
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:21 PM   #7032
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Originally Posted by moparSRT View Post
USVTA baning the Justock has nothing to do with ROAR, RobK/KevinK posted that the TEKIN SPEC will not be legal because the user can update the software(non-timing only).
Maybe they forgot the Justock they made legal 2 years ago has the same option ... so now they want to ban it.

Go back a few pages and you will find the discusion.
Rob King only said he should go back and ban it to piss people off. He didn't say it was banned....yet.
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:35 PM   #7033
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I admit I don't know enough about ESC design to prove that you can't add boost to the HW, but my understanding is that they can't support such a feature in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Okay, here is the correction: It could easily have boost; this is a function of software only. There is nothing in the hardware to prevent this.

But the good people at HobbyWing have not done this, as far as I know.
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:41 PM   #7034
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Originally Posted by moparSRT View Post
The rules also say :
No modifications or optional parts allowed on motor can, endbell, stator, or rotor, other than the Boss #5925 Ballistic 540 Vented Endbell/Bearing Racing Upgrade Kit (replacement) .

ceramic bearing are not factory installed so they are a optional part and by installing them you are modifying the motor ...
Well I am not running ceramics and don't plan on it. However, if something happened to the bearing in the motor I would replace it and not buy a new end bell kit or something. That would be just dumb vs a $2 fix. I don't see people going around checking bearings either. So this will just make you a DORK if you put them in.
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Old 05-06-2014, 08:04 PM   #7035
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I have a hobbywing justock. I keep it as a back-up esc and for if my tekin ever craps out I got it over the Novak stuff because at the time I ran USVTA rules and it was way cheaper than any novak, it was externally adjustable, and it actually worked compaired to the novak stuff. I tried a club stock, edge, gtb1 and 2, and all glitched like crazy with my old FM radio. The HW, Tekins, or BHR ESC's I had never did. I raced everything from 1/10 touring with them to 1/8 etruggy and i high volt servos. Never a problem. So I went with HW. The only thing that you can adjust on them are the same things you can adjust on a GTB 2. The difference is on a HW you can use a programing card, or computer, on the Novak, you have to count lights and beeps. This is very annyoing to me. Thats my preference, but not everyones and thats just fine. At no time could you ever mess with timing. None of the updates ever allow you to take it out of blinky mode. Blinky is blinky, no matter the manufacturer. Other than "feel" every esc in blinky provides the same 0 timing power to the esc. Some have adjustable launch and brake settings, some dont, but its the same overall amount of power. If not ROAR, along with several other international sactioning bodies would not allow the esc to compete. Also like everyone has said, if HW did somehow allow the timing to be adjusted, they would be banned from all of these organizations, and poof there goes your sales.

As for the Tekin I know it wont get approved and thats fine. But as far as I know there was only 1 blinky software that was deamed to be unfair and have timing. That was years ago, and on the gen 1 rs esc. I have updated my hotwire many many times, and every time, it erases the previous version of the software makkng impossible for me to go back. Even for those that manged to save previous software versions, it would have to be people who have had a tekin for a very very long time or one from a few years back.

I, and I am sure alot of others would like to know the status of the HW soon. I plan on making my car USVTA compliant, toninclude weight even my track is 1450g, so I can be prepared to go to the southern nats later this year. I would really not like to have to buy another ESC as I currently have one that fits in the rules. And just to throw another wrench in the wheel. The Speed Passion is programable too. It even comes with a programing card. In fact its software is almost identical to that if the hobbywing.
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