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Old 03-12-2014, 10:14 AM   #6496
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On a side note: Novak does offer a Trade in Program so you can send in your "obsolete" motor for a new BOSS motor for $69.
http://teamnovak.com/tradein Notice "obsolete" is in quotes. As Eric said he doesn't feel that his SS is obsolete.
The SS isn't obsolete - unless you take away the timing restriction... Then it puts that motor at a disadvantage on certain tracks.

No sour grapes here - just figured I'd add my 2 cents concerning the thought of removing the timing label rule.
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:32 AM   #6497
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There are lot's of out of the norm setup things you should do to a VTA car to be fast. These are the secrets people should be asking about.
If you're in a secret giving mood I would love to hear some.
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:40 AM   #6498
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And this is YOUR pot you are stirring...
A ban would be fine.. As long as it is based upon the "vintage"/year of the car and applies to all manufacturers

Thanks RobK for the support...
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Old 03-12-2014, 12:43 PM   #6499
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bkspeedo, what are some of the unusual setup tips that would help a VTA car to be fast?
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Old 03-12-2014, 12:51 PM   #6500
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On a weekly basis at my home "short" track in Indy, I am lucky to race with several very good VTA racers. At least 3 of the racers are good enough to be in the top 10 at any national VTA event and several more would be in the top 20.

What I've learned over time is that their cars are fast because they get through the corners better, not because they have better batteries or motors or chassis. It took me a long time to accept that I wasn't being beat by newer/better equipment. Once I put my ego aside and started focusing on making MY setup better, my results improved.

I should add that I'm not naive. I know that a few of the good racers at my track have tested their motors and know which one is best. But I also know that when my setup was better, I turned faster laps than they did even if they were running their best motor & battery.

In the end I understand that someone might have a "faster" motor than me. But I also understand that I should be able to overcome any disadvantages I have by getting the most out of the equipment I'm using (which is something I rarely do). Until I have the perfect setup car for the layout, I'm going to spend my time trying to beat the track instead of worrying why other racers are doing better than me.
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Old 03-12-2014, 12:53 PM   #6501
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Originally Posted by nubie-wan View Post
bkspeedo, what are some of the unusual setup tips that would help a VTA car to be fast?
If you run the TC4 backwards with rear steering it cuts at least .5 seconds off my lap times. It's an awesome sight to see...
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Old 03-12-2014, 01:03 PM   #6502
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On a weekly basis at my home "short" track in Indy, I am lucky to race with several very good VTA racers. At least 3 of the racers are good enough to be in the top 10 at any national VTA event and several more would be in the top 20.

What I've learned over time is that their cars are fast because they get through the corners better, not because they have better batteries or motors or chassis. It took me a long time to accept that I wasn't being beat by newer/better equipment. Once I put my ego aside and started focusing on making MY setup better, my results improved.

I should add that I'm not naive. I know that a few of the good racers at my track have tested their motors and know which one is best. But I also know that when my setup was better, I turned faster laps than they did even if they were running their best motor & battery.

In the end I understand that someone might have a "faster" motor than me. But I also understand that I should be able to overcome any disadvantages I have by getting the most out of the equipment I'm using (which is something I rarely do). Until I have the perfect setup car for the layout, I'm going to spend my time trying to beat the track instead of worrying why other racers are doing better than me.
exactly.. the best motor in the world won't help you if you can't control your car, or it handles like crap

I'd gladly take a slightly 'slower' motor, if I knew I had the speed in corners and the twisty bits...fast motors only help you on long straights but if you're faster in the twisty bits, you'll make up for that straight line speed
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Old 03-12-2014, 05:55 PM   #6503
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Damned if you do damned if you don't... Try to adapt and make people happy only makes someone else mad. I am SOOO happy to not be in charge of this. I mean how old is the SS motor anyways??? If my ballistic is over 3 years old then that SS has to be???? Both motors are not even sold by Novak anymore... Also as admitted by John his "sticker" at 45 is past the cogging point meaning it is past 45 degree's anyways. So your SS is "obsolete" in your eyes compared to his motor.

I don't think there are that many people these days running SS motors. I still feel that for the greater good the timing sticker rule should go away. Just one less thing for people to bitch about.

On a side note: Novak does offer a Trade in Program so you can send in your "obsolete" motor for a new BOSS motor for $69.
http://teamnovak.com/tradein Notice "obsolete" is in quotes. As Eric said he doesn't feel that his SS is obsolete.
I ran an SS 10.5 (blinky mode) in Pro10 (Associated RC10L2) open on asphalt last summer and "WON" with it. Cant be all that bad !!!!!!
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Old 03-12-2014, 06:42 PM   #6504
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I ran an SS 10.5 (blinky mode) in Pro10 (Associated RC10L2) open on asphalt last summer and "WON" with it. Cant be all that bad !!!!!!
10.5 in a 2wd pan car vs. 25.5 in an overweight 4wd TC - let's not compare apples and oranges here... And I don't recall anyone saying the SS was a bad motor (although the hardwired sensor cable wasn't a great idea, IMO...)

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exactly.. the best motor in the world won't help you if you can't control your car, or it handles like crap

I'd gladly take a slightly 'slower' motor, if I knew I had the speed in corners and the twisty bits...fast motors only help you on long straights but if you're faster in the twisty bits, you'll make up for that straight line speed
Words to live by - "Corner speed makes any motor faster..."
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:30 PM   #6505
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Snoopy, Just have Eric look at your car at the Scale Nats. You did sign up right...

Snowy.
No but if I could find a way to get up there I would sign up late. Sometimes I really feel chained down by my obligations. Worried that I will end up like George who never races, just lurks in the forum of the class he used to participate in.
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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer
What I've learned over time is that their cars are fast because they get through the corners better, not because they have better batteries or motors or chassis. It took me a long time to accept that I wasn't being beat by newer/better equipment. Once I put my ego aside and started focusing on making MY setup better, my results improved.
I was under the impression that they got through the corners better AND they have better motors, batteries, and chassis. Which in my case may be true.
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:36 AM   #6506
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I almost hate to post this, but I do think there is some logic in dropping the timing rule.

I do understand it could obsolete 25.5 SS's on some tracks...and I don't like that; but perhaps with a significant delay (for example, notifying everyone now that the rule will change on jan 1, 2015) could help make it easier for people to plan ahead to pick up a new motor. Or some kind of allowance could be made to those running an SS motor (such as a slightly reduced minimum weight?)

Maybe someone has an "in" with Novak, and could get them (novak) to sell a VTA "upgrade kit" - a complete ballistic 25.5, minus rotor, for a further discount. Re-use your old rotor. It wouldn't be for everyone (some folks want all new), but for someone like me...if the rotor measures good and runs fine, it's still good! It should be able to knock another $20 or $25 off the cost of the motor, easy.

We've raced VTA here in northern california for a couple of years now, and I have NEVER seen an SS motor used in VTA. Not once. What I have seen is an occasional quibble over the way timing is set on a ballistic, and I do have some sympathy for those quibbles because the logic is sound...in our area, it's probably the biggest weakness in the VTA rules. It's not a huge problem, but it does come up from time to time.
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Old 03-13-2014, 09:57 AM   #6507
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A great driver with a great motor, great batteries & a great car is a difficult combination to beat. Back in the Brushed days, the motor man for one of the big factory teams told me he built 100 identical motors for a big race and picked the best 4 for his driver. So there is something to having a good motor too.

Being new to this 25.5 version of Trans AM, I was surprised that people were running their motors anywhere near 45 degrees of timing. You will certainly get more RPMs but what about power (Watts) and how fast does the motor accelerate? My brushed experience with a Fantom dyno always got us around 32 degrees of timing on motors with adjustable endbell timing for the MAX watts, then we geared for those RPMs. Sure wish I still had my old Fantom dyno to see if that still applies with brushless motors too.
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Old 03-13-2014, 09:57 AM   #6508
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I have a Ballistic 21.5 and a 13.5 SS sitting on the shelf. Two reasons that I would be interested in a new Novak 25.5 minus the rotor to save a few bucks. Of course with the ballistic I could just buy the stator. They do have a great trade in program. And they do have great customer service. Charlie is a great liason between the racer and the company.
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Old 03-13-2014, 10:14 AM   #6509
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Old 03-13-2014, 10:14 AM   #6510
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I'm debating on buying a motor checker. I really think it would be a good tuning tool. In my opinion, it's like buying a timing light for full sized cars. Back in the day you could adjust by ear and get it pretty close. I don't think you can optimize a brushless motor without tuning on a checker of some sort. Cranking the timing and listening for revs will only get you so far. How many actual TransAm cars do you think hit the track without having a full dyno pull, jetting the carb and a charging system check?

Which brings me to timing marks on the outside of the can. The motor is a physical thing, but how much variance is there in Hall Sensor placement? Does the board drift a little? How does shim tolerance affect timing if the sensor end is shimmed too tall, too short or just right? I had 2 motors fail out of the box with bad boards and was sent replacements immediately. They work great now, but who knows where the sticker should be?
I played around with shimming my backup motor some a few weeks ago and the results were pretty impressive. Gained about ~100kv and amps went from 0.8 to 1.0. Played a little with timing but back to back shimming worked very well.
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