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Old 03-11-2014, 09:16 PM   #6481
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Can't it be both?

Just kidding. While I do feel like my car is a dog. I am williing to accept the possibility that I just might not be all that great at selecting timing and gearing, and I know I have an issue behind the wheel. As far as handling goes, my car feels neutral and balanced and I love it. It is far better than I am.

Darkside is Thunder running VTA every week? How about USGT? How about F1? What are the rules on F1? And interest in LMP?
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Old 03-11-2014, 10:11 PM   #6482
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By whole rig I mean the whole chassis with all electronics and the motor, battery, wheels and shell. If whole rig means esc, motor, and battery, then I can do that instead.
The whole Tamale please, should take 3-5 days to get it done and sent back to you all fresh and tidy with "dyno' and "track" numbers.
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Old 03-12-2014, 04:10 AM   #6483
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It sucks that you had a problem with your motor. It's never fun when something you just buy is DOA or isn't working as expected. Overall I haven't heard that many problems over the years with the Novak USVTA motors. There are always going to be exceptions and a possible bad X that will come from any company. If there were a lot of people with issues like you had then I would understand 100%. It's not like they are going to be like OH it's a 25.5 motor who cares about checking this one vs the other motors they sell.

Anyways, from what I have read is that your motor is now working, correct? So that is good. Sure it took longer to figure out what was going on. I remember you saying it was sent in for testing and it came back with the OK. Just wondering if you adjusted the timing or anything after it came back before running it again and the screws where tightened to much when you did. Maybe not... Not all things are going to be a "known issue" and have a "known fix" until it happens to someone, so I guess this wasn't something Novak at the time was aware of like they are now.
I've kind of gone astray with my main point, It's not whether my motor is working or not, but whether the quality control issue we found with my motor is compromising USVTA's ability to level the playing field and to enforce their own rules.

We think the basic issue with my motor is that the timing label is way off and IMO that has serious ramifications for USVTA. My friend Frank (Mr 75MHZ) found the timing label issue and posted about it it several weeks ago. With the timing set at 30 degrees on the label my motor runs very strong and competes very well with everyone else at our local track. At 45 degrees timing on the label it cogs like hell and has all the symptoms of too much timing (probably way more than 45 degrees timing). If I were competing at the national level, this would be a very good motor to have because I could probably get more than 45 degrees timing (sweet spot is reported to be between 46 and 48 degrees) and no one would be the wiser (including me) because the timing label would indicate I had less than 45 degrees timing.

This quality issue should be raising all sorts of red flags for the USVTA technical community because very small errors in placing that timing label can produce significant competivie advantage if the reported timing sweetspot is true. Is 45 degrees really 45 degrees and can USVTA really enforce it? So far I haven't heard anyone from USVTA address that. Had my motor not been so far off, I probably wouldn't have noticed either. But since USVTA is the paragon of virture for leveling the playing field and if they are really serious about it, they might want to impound some A-main motors at the next big race and have them sent to an independent source to see how much timing is really in those motors.

Just my 2 cents and I'll shut up!

Last edited by John Wallace2; 03-12-2014 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:57 AM   #6484
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I'm debating on buying a motor checker. I really think it would be a good tuning tool. In my opinion, it's like buying a timing light for full sized cars. Back in the day you could adjust by ear and get it pretty close. I don't think you can optimize a brushless motor without tuning on a checker of some sort. Cranking the timing and listening for revs will only get you so far. How many actual TransAm cars do you think hit the track without having a full dyno pull, jetting the carb and a charging system check?

Which brings me to timing marks on the outside of the can. The motor is a physical thing, but how much variance is there in Hall Sensor placement? Does the board drift a little? How does shim tolerance affect timing if the sensor end is shimmed too tall, too short or just right? I had 2 motors fail out of the box with bad boards and was sent replacements immediately. They work great now, but who knows where the sticker should be?
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:06 AM   #6485
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Originally Posted by John Wallace2 View Post
I've kind of gone astray with my main point, It's not whether my motor is working or not, but whether the quality control issue we found with my motor is compromising USVTA's ability to level the playing field and to enforce their own rules.

We think the basic issue with my motor is that the timing label is way off and IMO that has serious ramifications for USVTA. My friend Frank (Mr 75MHZ) found the timing label issue and posted about it it several weeks ago. With the timing set at 30 degrees on the label my motor runs very strong and competes very well with everyone else at our local track. At 45 degrees timing on the label it cogs like hell and has all the symptoms of too much timing (probably way more than 45 degrees timing). If I were competing at the national level, this would be a very good motor to have because I could probably get more than 45 degrees timing (sweet spot is reported to be between 46 and 48 degrees) and no one would be the wiser (including me) because the timing label would indicate I had less than 45 degrees timing.

This quality issue should be raising all sorts of red flags for the USVTA technical community because very small errors in placing that timing label can produce significant competivie advantage if the reported timing sweetspot is true. Is 45 degrees really 45 degrees and can USVTA really enforce it? So far I haven't heard anyone from USVTA address that. Had my motor not been so far off, I probably wouldn't have noticed either. But since USVTA is the paragon of virture for leveling the playing field and if they are really serious about it, they might want to impound some A-main motors at the next big race and have them sent to an independent source to see how much timing is really in those motors.

Just my 2 cents and I'll shut up!
I do agree with you on the timing rule and think it should just be taken out. It was said by Novak this is placed for "True" 0 degree's because each motor is different. However 1mm fudge can make a difference on that. I can see how easy it would be to make a mistake being made on the sticker placement. Hell, I mess up my stickers on my car bodies all the time...

So I think the timing rule should just go away. Max Timing isn't always the best anyways. Sometimes it just adds more heat and nothing else... For you the max on your motor it cogs anyways meaning you wouldn't even run it that way. Every other class lets you put as much or little timing in a motor as you like and people understand that more timing = more heat and a bigger chance that you can burn up your motor... Nobody would be forcing anyone to go pasted that mark. At least this will stop people from complaining about the stickers.

My motor currently runs at max timing and doesn't get past 100 degrees after an 8 min main. I haven't tried to go past the mark due to rules, but I assume it could handle a few degrees more of timing.
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:44 AM   #6486
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If the timing rule is lifted, that would make the 25.5 SS motor obsolete. The SS motor has a very limited timing adjustment range.
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:55 AM   #6487
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If the timing rule is lifted, that would make the 25.5 SS motor obsolete. The SS motor has a very limited timing adjustment range.
Not really, I have done fairly well with the SS.

Is it down on RPM's? yes, does it have an advantage on efficiency? YES, can you gear a lower FDR and run cooler, yes.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:05 AM   #6488
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Not really, I have done fairly well with the SS.

Is it down on RPM's? yes, does it have an advantage on efficiency? YES, can you gear a lower FDR and run cooler, yes.
I used an SS for several seasons - they run well, but without the timing rule the Ballistics set 1-2 degrees short of cogging (and geared appropriately) would have an advantage on short tracks.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:31 AM   #6489
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Im just happy this thread is talking about motors and not belt vs shaft .. Or banning chassis.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:34 AM   #6490
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If the timing rule is lifted, that would make the 25.5 SS motor obsolete. The SS motor has a very limited timing adjustment range.
Damned if you do damned if you don't... Try to adapt and make people happy only makes someone else mad. I am SOOO happy to not be in charge of this. I mean how old is the SS motor anyways??? If my ballistic is over 3 years old then that SS has to be???? Both motors are not even sold by Novak anymore... Also as admitted by John his "sticker" at 45 is past the cogging point meaning it is past 45 degree's anyways. So your SS is "obsolete" in your eyes compared to his motor.

I don't think there are that many people these days running SS motors. I still feel that for the greater good the timing sticker rule should go away. Just one less thing for people to bitch about.

On a side note: Novak does offer a Trade in Program so you can send in your "obsolete" motor for a new BOSS motor for $69.
http://teamnovak.com/tradein Notice "obsolete" is in quotes. As Eric said he doesn't feel that his SS is obsolete.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:35 AM   #6491
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Im just happy this thread is talking about motors and not belt vs shaft .. Or banning chassis.
Oh sweet baby jesus don't get them started...
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:40 AM   #6492
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Im just happy this thread is talking about motors and not belt vs shaft .. Or banning chassis.
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Oh sweet baby jesus don't get them started...
Aweomatix = banned




















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Old 03-12-2014, 09:43 AM   #6493
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You want the whole rig? Radio and all? The other thing is, isn't there a trick to mailing Lipo batteries?

I have wondered if my issue wasn't in the charger.
Snoopy, Just have Eric look at your car at the Scale Nats. You did sign up right...

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Old 03-12-2014, 09:47 AM   #6494
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I liked this class better when there was a gearing limit and motor's had limited timing adjustment like the SS. Personally i think there should be a locked end-bell requirement as well. The motor should not be the deciding factor in how fast you go. Driving and car setup should be what sets everyone apart.

There are lot's of out of the norm setup things you should do to a VTA car to be fast. These are the secrets people should be asking about.

I will say the old Novak SS was and still is the best motor when timing values are set roughly the same on other motors.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:56 AM   #6495
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Aweomatix = banned

Just kidding......


And this is YOUR pot you are stirring...
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