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Old 02-25-2014, 03:27 PM   #6301
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And what would be the tires that are reccomended for high bite carpet? Would those be the same part number or would they be the other only tires allowed in VTA. What about low bite carpet on a cold track in an unheated warehouse. What tires would you use for that? Would those also be the only tires allowed in VTA? Or the other only tires that are allowed in VTA.
Well, for high bite carpet, I'd recommend a little ca glue on the sidewall . I take it back, I fear the wrath
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Old 02-25-2014, 03:28 PM   #6302
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Originally Posted by PROMODVETTE View Post
Look how large 17.5 is. Open to all MFG's. People have tons of options. So if one MFG is garbage, they have other options to run. Example, when is the last time a Novak motor won anything above a club race that wasnt VTA? Reedy is a respectable company with a great racing pedigree, why not allow their motor too?
but you're not mentioning the part about 'motor of the week/event'...how many times have you seen guys run to a shop to buy the 'hottest' 17.5 because so-and-so hotshot was running it?? I know I've seen it a LOT..

of many, the whole a-main is filled with this motor or that motor... or I just bought this thunderpower, and i'm already down on power because the 'recommended motor' (recommended by the local hotshot) said I need this one?

if you don't think this happens, you're living in a dream land...

the one motor rule (ok, 2 motors SS and the ballistic/boss) takes all the above garbage out of the equation..

remember a couple of years ago at the ROAR nats?? tony phalen won (and TQ, I believe) with a completely legal USVTA setup... and that was against all the open motors available

so stop making issues out of a non-issue... if you want to allow other 25.5's then do it...but the big class rules, that 85% of the tracks follow, have no issues with novak only
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Old 02-25-2014, 03:29 PM   #6303
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Probably the only tires that are allowed in VTA.
2 choices ... depending on the rules for vta at his track
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Old 02-25-2014, 03:30 PM   #6304
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PLEASE DO TELL !!!
Yeah, I also don't understand what I'm supposed to be seeing here.
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Old 02-25-2014, 03:34 PM   #6305
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Part 1; new 4797/93's
Part 2; old 4797/93's
Part 2 1/2; even older 4797/93's

Sorry, couldn't resist
Thats a gorgeous response.

I don't mean to show how dumb I am, but I still dont know what those numbers mean on that tester.
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Old 02-25-2014, 04:00 PM   #6306
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then lets do a side by side of known motors.

Legal 25.5 with 40 deg and 45 deg timing, Legal 21.5 and then the not so legal.

The motor in question has actually had winds removed, and or the 17.5 "yellow" insulator removed and replaced with black.
Attached Thumbnails
U.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing Part 2-45-deg-25.5.jpg   U.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing Part 2-40-deg-25.5.jpg   U.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing Part 2-21.5.jpg   U.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing Part 2-25.5-cheater.jpg  
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Old 02-25-2014, 04:40 PM   #6307
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I couldn't make the big Ft. Wayne, IN VTA race this past weekend, so I just ran local club VTA racing in Indianapolis. We run on a smaller track, but our fast laps in VTA were actually slower than the fast laps at Ft. Wayne.

I borrowed Indyhobbies.com TC3(s) and set TQ & won the A-main. (A big thanks Indyhobbies). While his cars weren't the fastest VTA cars I've ever driven, they handled so well I was able to hug the barriers through every turn without losing any momentum. A great setup allowed me to drive better (than I normally do), which resulted in a podium finish.

----------

I understand there are variances in motors and some people who will do anything (including cheat) to win a club race. However, there is nothing stopping tracks and/or race organizers to take away any advantage a "fast" motor might have (even if it slips through tech).

My suggestion is to have a more technical layout with the shortest straight(s) possible (to allow for lining up at the start of the races). Just because a track can have a 100+ ft straight (including sweeper), doesn't mean it needs to. Harbor Hobbies has done a good job mixing up layouts or throwing in a setup curveball at the few big VTA races I've attended (Thanks to Eric - ercwhtsd).

If we can design layouts for VTA that don't give "fast" motors an advantage, then we reward the people who can setup a car well and are good drivers....problem solved.
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Old 02-25-2014, 04:44 PM   #6308
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While I don't intend to cheat, I would like to get the most out of my motors. I found the motor checker that Eric has in his pics, but it's $250 and Speed Passion doesn't make it anymore. What are the preferred methods of checking/testing motors? Feel free to direct me to another thread if needed. :-)

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Old 02-25-2014, 05:26 PM   #6309
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Originally Posted by PROMODVETTE View Post
Look how large 17.5 is. Open to all MFG's. People have tons of options. So if one MFG is garbage, they have other options to run. Example, when is the last time a Novak motor won anything above a club race that wasnt VTA? Reedy is a respectable company with a great racing pedigree, why not allow their motor too?
This is the LAST thing we'd want. Want proof? Visit the Tamiya TCS and Mini threads to see what "open motor" choices did to the mini class. Choosing one spec motor might seemingly show bias towards one manufacturer, but offers the fairest racing.

Most of the other 25.5s don't appear on the ROAR approval list - why should the USVTA sanction their use if we have no hope of verifying that they offer similar levels of performance between brands?
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Old 02-25-2014, 05:32 PM   #6310
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This is the LAST thing we'd want. Want proof? Visit the Tamiya TCS and Mini threads to see what "open motor" choices did to the mini class. Choosing one spec motor might seemingly show bias towards one manufacturer, but offers the fairest racing.

Most of the other 25.5s don't appear on the ROAR approval list - why should the USVTA sanction their use if we have no hope of verifying that they offer similar levels of performance between brands?
Yes. But novak needs to do something about the timing sticker that can be randomly placed.
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Old 02-25-2014, 06:15 PM   #6311
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Yes. But novak needs to do something about the timing sticker that can be randomly placed.
I guess laser etched timing marks would work. Or even screen printed marks. I guess someone could make a jig that will scratch the marks onto the endbell. Perhaps there is a measurement we can come up with as the endpoint of legal timing. Say x mm from the middle endbell screw.
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Old 02-25-2014, 06:31 PM   #6312
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Yes. But novak needs to do something about the timing sticker that can be randomly placed.
The stickers are not placed "randomly".

Here are a few quotes from Charlie himself as to the how's and why's. It will not satisfy some of you, and maybe some will be.

"It can be hard to explain simply and be accurate. When the motors are built, part of the quality control is loaded testing to determine the RPM of the motor, as well as it's current consumption. This means the timing "varies" from one motor to the next because of the basic tolerances of the stators, and the rotors."

"there are several reasons why we set the timing the way we do, most aren't something that anyone wants to read, so I won't bore you. Bottom line is, we don't think the sticker is a awesome answer, but it's better then sending the motors out all set to "different" values. "

"the fact that how "novak" sets our timing with "machines" instead of eyeballs, all the motors would "leave" at different settings." (if the motor cans were pre-etched or scribbed, each individual motor would leave the shop at a different timing setpoint.)
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Old 02-25-2014, 06:59 PM   #6313
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I have bought end bells with ceramic bearings from novak, and I eyeballed the sticker location on my other novak motor and slapped the stickers on. Quite randomly. Had I known how to determine where the 30 should be, I would have done so. If I had to follow the rule where I cannot go over 45 timing I could be 1 or more off to the wrong side and I would be at a disadvantage. Or I could "accidentally" place the sticker to my advantage a couple of degrees.
But where I race there is no restriction on end bell timing so it's not that crucial for me.
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:02 PM   #6314
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While I don't intend to cheat, I would like to get the most out of my motors. I found the motor checker that Eric has in his pics, but it's $250 and Speed Passion doesn't make it anymore. What are the preferred methods of checking/testing motors? Feel free to direct me to another thread if needed. :-)

Scott
Here's a cheap way to check the free-running RPM on a brushless motor:



It's an optical tach used for airplanes. I just added an LED and a series 470 ohm resistor connected to some leads, with alligator clips to connect to any two stator terminals. The LED shines into the tach's internal photodiode, and is held in position with some heat-shrink tubing:

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Old 02-25-2014, 08:38 PM   #6315
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I had no idea the tolerance was that great. Now I feel like my best chance of having any power is just to set it where it will turn some rpm and then gear it so it has some punch. Over simplified and probably wrong, but it's what I am thinking.
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