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Old 04-16-2012, 05:56 PM   #511
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hey Nash, it wasnt anything with just blowing it...after 15+ mins, the rear traction was gone...I was fighting it and was barely able to keep from just pulling it off and taking a "pitstop" and having someone sauce my rear tires...Ive done it before, lol
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:58 PM   #512
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Ok here is why's on a few things:

C rating and mah: Really doesn't matter. When you pull around 1000 - 1200 mah on a typical (not 20 minute ) run, the average amps are 10-12 A over the run. So the lowest C rated batteries are able to handle the load. You are also going to be in the fat part of the voltage curve as well. Will a better quality battery with a lower IR, regardless of C rating be better? Yes. Because IR matters 1000x what the C rating does, especially since there is no real standard for C.

5000 mah rule: As all the posts indicate to me, if the rule was rescinded, a large number of racers would buy 6500 60c packs because they are "better". Not everything in the class is limited, but a lot of things are. The rule was changed so that guys can run the Zippy packs and Turnigy packs that are cheap and the offroad guys love so much. I realize that the battery you already own is cheaper, but is it cheaper for all the racers who own sub 5000 packs to upgrade?

USGT rules: USGT is the "next step" on the ladder. It's a little faster, the blinky ESCs are allowed, the motor make is not limited, --it's a little more of everything than VTA. So there is no mah limit.

EA: Seems to me there are guys looking for 5000 packs...just sayin'
Rob,

Thanks for the reply. You are exactly right about C rating not mattering as much as a battery with good voltage and IR. But from what Ive found a battery with a high C rating (From reliable companies) have better voltage and IR. I am not sure if its because they really are higher C rating or they just use a higher quality cell and claim higher C rating. Either way most lipo's are simi to grossly over rated on C rating.

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Old 04-16-2012, 06:00 PM   #513
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Yes but different company.

EA
I figured that...lol..."company A"...hint hint..lol
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:00 PM   #514
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Rob,

Thanks for the reply. You are exactly right about C rating not mattering as much as a battery with good voltage and IR. But from what Ive found a battery with a high C rating (From reliable companies) have better voltage and IR. I am not sure if its because they really are higher C rating or they just use a higher quality cell and claim higher C rating. Either way most lipo's are simi to grossly over rated on C rating.

EA
I agree..and I tend to think that the higher C rating on quality batteries comes from better cells with better IR and voltage,LOL.. In any case, the 25.5 motors don't ask much of the battery.
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:03 PM   #515
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The motors are so 'underpowered' that just about any C rating pack will provide plenty of power on demand. The discharge curve (as previously mentioned) is why there's a limit on pack capacity. In a long enough heat, a higher capacity pack won't drop-off in performance as much. One won't affect the outcome of a heat, the other could.
What is a "long enough heat" or race? I would expect a performance difference to show up towards the end of a 30 minute race, and maybe even a 20 minute race, but remember, you are carring around extra weight for the whole race. Accelleration = force divided by mass.

Last weekend the scale nationals were held and they ran a very unusual format with a 15 min B main and a 20 min A main. Were the lap times droping off towards the end for those running 5000 or so mah packs? I don't know if they were. If they weren't, then that would be evidence that you would get no performance advantage with extra mah capacity. If there was a drop off in the lap times of the 20 or 15 min mains, then that would be evidence that in a 20 or 15 min race, towards the end, extra capacity would be a performance edge, but remember, you would have to carry the extra weight through all the earlier laps to reap the benefit at the end. Last weekend at The Track at Harbor Hobbies was a rare race, but by looking at those results, maybe we can discern when, or if ever, mah capacity becomes a factor.

The USVTA standard is 8 min mains, and with a 25.5 motor, is mah capacity ever an advantage?
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:17 PM   #516
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I have no idea if my lipo was at a disadvantage...my rear traction went away in the last laps...but if you watch the video, my car still looked strong on the straight...as did alot of the cars...except Robs...Im picking again bro...just happy...loved that race...

Hey Solara, post the video
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:33 PM   #517
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I have no idea if my lipo was at a disadvantage...my rear traction went away in the last laps...but if you watch the video, my car still looked strong on the straight...as did alot of the cars...except Robs...Im picking again bro...just happy...loved that race...

Hey Solara, post the video
did you learn nothing from the Thunder 1000 enduro car gets loose at 15 minutes. put more toe in it before you start a long run like that. real tight up front is comfy at the end of 20 minutes.
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:01 PM   #518
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I did...and it was really good all race, but a major loose goose in the rear in the end...Im very happy with my car and my performance...Im better racer now than I was 6 months ago...and that what Im looking for
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:29 PM   #519
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Ok here is why's on a few things:

C rating and mah: Really doesn't matter.

5000 mah rule: As all the posts indicate to me, if the rule was rescinded, a large number of racers would buy 6500 60c packs because they are "better".

I am probably treading on thin ice here, but here goes:

"As all the posts indicate"... "all" the posts ?? Interesting (and unsupportable) take on the above discussion.

I never advocated 60c and many others never advocated high C packs. I advocated being able to use the offroad packs I already have. Higher mah packs give you more practice time per pack, so they are convenient for me and others in offroad. Lots of us have them in my area and this is one of the reasons all the tracks in my state ignore this rule.

Who is saying that 6500 60c packs are "better" in VTA? In the pits at trackside, I consistently hear that mah and C rating aren't important in VTA. Maybe a newbie in the very beginning thinks this, but they are always advised that VTA is different and there is no need. Aren't you just speculating that many will go out and spend money on an "upgrade" even though people tell them that it doesn't exist? I think the average racer has more common sense than that and this is an unjustified fear.

I hope I am not crucified for this post. I am just trying to understand. I wasn't going to start this whole bruhaha up again, but I though that lately there was some flexibility on things, (like escs and spoilers and wasn't the requirement for Roar approval for LiPos just dropped?), and that this might be a successful time to bring it up. I guess it wasn't.
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:31 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by Rufus2010 View Post
I am probably treading on thin ice here, but here goes:

"As all the posts indicate"... "all" the posts ?? Interesting (and unsupportable) take on the above discussion.

I never advocated 60c and many others never advocated high C packs. I advocated being able to use the offroad packs I already have. Higher mah packs give you more practice time per pack, so they are convenient for me and others in offroad. Lots of us have them in my area and this is one of the reasons all the tracks in my state ignore this rule.

Who is saying that 6500 60c packs are "better" in VTA? In the pits at trackside, I consistently hear that mah and C rating aren't important in VTA. Maybe a newbie in the very beginning thinks this, but they are always advised that VTA is different and there is no need. Aren't you just speculating that many will go out and spend money on an "upgrade" even though people tell them that it doesn't exist? I think the average racer has more common sense than that and this is an unjustified fear.

I hope I am not crucified for this post. I am just trying to understand. I wasn't going to start this whole bruhaha up again, but I though that lately there was some flexibility on things, (like escs and spoilers and wasn't the requirement for Roar approval for LiPos just dropped?), and that this might be a successful time to bring it up. I guess it wasn't.
Im not a VTA guy but I am pretty sure that the MAH rating is because of cost. Usually the mah rating is the biggest price increase factor in batteries in my experience on the manufacturing side of it. The C rating difference is not as big as mah as far as cost go from what Ive seen.

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Old 04-16-2012, 07:36 PM   #521
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The cheapest batteries are the ones I already own.
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:38 PM   #522
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The cheapest batteries are the ones I already own.
But just because you have them from off road doesnt mean everyone else that race's VTA does. Playing devils advocate as I agree that the cheapest for YOU are the ones you already paid for.

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Old 04-16-2012, 07:41 PM   #523
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Here's a thought....

Aside from the economics of buying new batteries versus using old but illegal batteries, how many average VTA drivers will ever realize the difference?

Case in point, at the race last weekend it was painfully obvious to me how important setup and driving are to being fast.

On the straights i was as fast or faster than the "fast" guys. But my setup was off and my driving inconsistent.

Looking at the fast guy's laps, his fast lap was 3 tenths faster than his average laps. Talk about consistency.

If you open up the battery rules, everyone will rush out and buy Uber Battery because they think it will make them fast. And that's bad for the class.

To the people who already own batteries, the money spent on a 5000mah battery is peace of mind knowing that your batteries aren't holding you back.

VTA is a class where horsepower won't hide your lack of driving and setup skills. Understand that, and you understand the philosophy behind the rules.
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:42 PM   #524
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You buy different motor's, bodies, tires,ect to race different classes dont you ? So whats the problem with getting different batteries. I dont see what the issue is, if you dont want to follow the set rules dont run the class. I didnt want to spend $100 for a motor i can only run in one class but i did so i could run the class. It sucks to have to buy class specific stuff but thats just how it is and not just in rc.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:07 PM   #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus2010 View Post
I am probably treading on thin ice here, but here goes:

"As all the posts indicate"... "all" the posts ?? Interesting (and unsupportable) take on the above discussion.

I never advocated 60c and many others never advocated high C packs. I advocated being able to use the offroad packs I already have. Higher mah packs give you more practice time per pack, so they are convenient for me and others in offroad. Lots of us have them in my area and this is one of the reasons all the tracks in my state ignore this rule.

Who is saying that 6500 60c packs are "better" in VTA? In the pits at trackside, I consistently hear that mah and C rating aren't important in VTA. Maybe a newbie in the very beginning thinks this, but they are always advised that VTA is different and there is no need. Aren't you just speculating that many will go out and spend money on an "upgrade" even though people tell them that it doesn't exist? I think the average racer has more common sense than that and this is an unjustified fear.

I hope I am not crucified for this post. I am just trying to understand. I wasn't going to start this whole bruhaha up again, but I though that lately there was some flexibility on things, (like escs and spoilers and wasn't the requirement for Roar approval for LiPos just dropped?), and that this might be a successful time to bring it up. I guess it wasn't.
All the posts indicates that since taking the running of this thing over, I have had this request many times. You are not the first to bring this up.

It comes up every couple months...
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