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Old 04-16-2012, 09:28 AM   #481
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Yes please don't let this get started again... the 5000mah rule is a cost effective way of keeping the class reachable to beginners. Think about how many people that race TC sell good packs cheap to VTA racers over the years as they get new ones. I have, although lately I have been only getting packs in the 6000 range so I'm not able to sell them to VTA guys but I have a good GT class at Thunder RC I can help out now. You can get 5000 packs for under $50 new and if you want to spend the clams you can get the Orion 5000 90c pack for about $100... you tell me 2 packs for $100 or 1 pack for $100 in a class that only pulls 1000 to 1500 mah out in a run. I TQed all 3 rounds at my track Sunday and only pulled 950 mah out of my 6500 mah pack.. sorry guys track owner prerogative just giving the guys someone to shot for as batboy told me I had to run VTA since he was up sucking it at the Nationals. I don't even count for the series class points as I am the track owner.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:58 AM   #482
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Yup all our 5000Mah batteries were got for about $35 each from guys going bigger.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:23 AM   #483
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Seems pretty easy to turn the above two postings into arguments FOR raising the mah hour limit.

I can hear future VTA racers all over the country saying:
"Please eliminate the mah limit. Everyone is going bigger and soon I won't be able to get good cheap used batteries that fit the rules anymore. Nashracer was my connection, but now the darkside has seduced him and he won't help me out anymore! "

The practical reality is that the market place is changing. New (and very inexpensive if purchased used) products are becoming available that are outside of our rules only because of what appears to be an artifical constraint with no relation to lap times or performance.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:29 AM   #484
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Nope, I see no point in it, search on amain alone came up with 12 5000Mah lipos, only 3 out of stock at the moment. So between them and other suppliers, there are plenty of 5000Mah batteries to be had.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:38 AM   #485
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Not to mention the tons of batteries that are less than 5000 mah, also VTA legal.
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:01 AM   #486
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I am not arguing that there are not new 5000 mah packs available. I am saying that there is no performance advantage to a higher mah pack.

Can anyone explain to me how a 6000 mah pack will lower my lap times?
Anyone?

The rule had outlived its practicality and this is PRECISELY why people keep bringing this subject up, and why it will continue to take up time and energy again and again in the future. Just raising the limit will probably only mean that it will eventually come up again. Eliminate any mah limit, making it identical with the no C rating limit.

A no mah limit rule will fit in nicely with the overall "budget" philosophy of being competitive with equipment you already have or used equipment that you can get inexpensively, while still maintaining a level playing field.

Last edited by Rufus2010; 04-16-2012 at 04:05 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:09 AM   #487
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my ignore list gets larger and larger
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:10 AM   #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus2010 View Post
Can anyone explain to me how a 6000 mah pack will lower my lap times?
Anyone?
Because it takes longer to discharge, the average voltage will stay higher than a lower rated pack where the discharge time, current draw, C rating and all other factors are the same. The difference between a 5000 and 6000 mAh pack will be insignificant on most tracks. But some tracks, where you can really stretch it out and take advantage of very low gearing, the higher mAh rated pack will have an advantage. This can easily be demonstrated by anyone that has a good quality charger / discharger that can log the discharge "curve."
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:20 AM   #489
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Used a year old 4600mah 55C lipo for the recent USVTA nat...15 minutes main and I ran the 8 minutes quailier before that. Still has about 1600mah left. A-main was 20 minutes look....there is only 1 driver did not finish because he was using a shorty 3400mah (he is actually doing that just so he can see the battery limit...) another one running a shorty 3900mah and last 20 minutes..

6000mah battery....is that for a 40 minutes USVTA main..? Give me a reason why there should be a 6000mah limit?

Why there is a 5000mah cap on the rule...? Because if there are no rule, there are no racing....USVTA set that rule up for a reason behind that, because anything around that capacity are generally very affortable. They are priced around $35 to 65 each. 6000mah and high C rating is $100 plus...the math and numbers don't lie.

If there are no cap on battery, there should not be any cap on motor choice , they should allow VTA Slick....then they should allow racing body...then they should allow boost ESC....and it will be ended up like TC racing, no different....and like we really need another class of TC when VTA and its current rule actually works out very good nation wide.

The rule is 5000mah, and NO ONE is complainting about that...NO ONE.
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:30 AM   #490
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I forgot to bring my Lipo Charger with me to the track for practice one day so I decided to see how many 6-minute runs I could get out of my 4800 mah battery. My VTA finally slowed to a crawl after the 10th lap in my 5th 6-minute heat. Not too bad. When I put the battery on the charger it still had 7.3 volts and 800 mah in it.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:33 PM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beemerfan View Post
Because it takes longer to discharge, the average voltage will stay higher than a lower rated pack where the discharge time, current draw, C rating and all other factors are the same. The difference between a 5000 and 6000 mAh pack will be insignificant on most tracks. But some tracks, where you can really stretch it out and take advantage of very low gearing, the higher mAh rated pack will have an advantage. This can easily be demonstrated by anyone that has a good quality charger / discharger that can log the discharge "curve."

I appreciate your response.
Not suprisingly, I don't think that it actually makes a difference in 25.5 VTA. I wholeheartedly agree in more powerful classes on large outdoor tracks, but all the indoor carpet tracks that I have been to and the VTA carpet races I have watched on youtube the tracks aren't like that. I think that in a 6 or 8 minute race with the 25.5 motor on those tracks you wouldn't be able to demonstrate it. You would have to run the same car for an 8 minute track session with the same driver and the same manufacturers C rated batteries and type except for mah capacity and record lap times during the later part of the session to compare the two different batteries. Weight difference and weight distribution would be a bigger influence.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:28 PM   #492
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Someone else mentioned it so I'll bring it up again. Just WHY do you have a need for larger capacity batteries ?? I'm curious what class would require much beyond 5000mah. Big C ratings have been proven , for the most part, to have little effect in VTA and thats a non issue as they're not regulated in VTA.
I think your to hung up on the performance point. The bigger picture is cost effectiveness for racers AND for newbies and the halting of the "battery of the week" syndrome(or motors and esc's) that has plagued TC to the point where people were always playing the "gotta keep up with the Joneses" game. The inevitable happened.... many people stopped playing all together. These rules are a huge benefit to the class. As for "fixes"...you missed the point. UPDATES are different. A fix implies there was a problem. There was no real problem with the esc list. The manufacturer simply updated the product line.
I hope these comments are helping you understand and you'll be part of VTA . At this point though I should think it's obvious that you won't change things based on your argument. The greater population sees VTA for the value it's always tried to offer. Ultimately only YOU can decide whether your in or out. Nuff said !
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:01 PM   #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evoracer View Post
Someone else mentioned it so I'll bring it up again. Just WHY do you have a need for larger capacity batteries ?? I'm curious what class would require much beyond 5000mah. Big C ratings have been proven , for the most part, to have little effect in VTA and thats a non issue as they're not regulated in VTA.
I think your to hung up on the performance point. The bigger picture is cost effectiveness for racers AND for newbies and the halting of the "battery of the week" syndrome(or motors and esc's) that has plagued TC to the point where people were always playing the "gotta keep up with the Joneses" game. The inevitable happened.... many people stopped playing all together. These rules are a huge benefit to the class. As for "fixes"...you missed the point. UPDATES are different. A fix implies there was a problem. There was no real problem with the esc list. The manufacturer simply updated the product line.
I hope these comments are helping you understand and you'll be part of VTA . At this point though I should think it's obvious that you won't change things based on your argument. The greater population sees VTA for the value it's always tried to offer. Ultimately only YOU can decide whether your in or out. Nuff said !

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and I'm not in favor of changing the rules.... but I think you are misrepresenting what he is saying. You said you think he's hung up on the perfomance point when he repeatedly stated that wasn't his concern.

He didn't say anything about performance or "keeping up with the jonses". He's asking why he has to lay out more money. Time and time again when this question comes up in the thread, that seems to be the basis of the question.

The standard answers are always given, just like they were this time.... "we don't want this to turn into TC with people chasing better gear"..... "we want to keep this inexpensive, just buy a used pack from people that upgrade"... "there are plenty of choices available from distributors just go buy one"... "I think if you go read all the prior messages you'll see why we chose this"... "The class is really growing at my track so our way must be right"....

Frankly, all those answers are unrelated to the OP point and are basically bull to the point he's making. The fact is, the cheapest battery is the one that you already own. And if the one you own doesn't give you any performance advantage, it's hard to hear all these other arguments that don't address what you brought up at all.

The fact is, VTA is a narrow class that makes you buy new equipment. It's not a budget class, it's not a class that leverages existing financial value. You're set off with a TC chassis to go hunt down a parts list and all your other gear goes on the shelf. If you can find it used, than great, but that's by no means guaranteed.

When you're first getting into this, it's a hard pill to swallow. You're paying more to go slower. I had this problem and it was hard to wrap my head around it. I mean, I had a LRP SPX Zero speedo. It's a full-time blinky speedo with no boost. But its not allowed. It is no different than a GTB2 performance wise, but I still had to go shopping.

Now that I've fully bought into it, I love it.... but make no mistake... none of these arguments held water with me when I started building up my ride - and they still don't. I just had to change my perspective that VTA is like any other class, and other than reusing your TC chassis you are starting over. Frankly, I feel that some of the forum members here are really newbie-hostile and just dismissive of newcomers with a "my way or the highway" approach.

If you want to convert these people sitting on the fence into VTA enthusiasts, there needs to be a better way to frame this debate. You need to sell VTA for the fun time and large class it is and acknowledge that it requires significant buy-in. It sucks that you can't reuse gear and you need to help people over that hump. Once they get in, they'll love it.... but you do have to acknowledge that obstacle the rule list creates. I mean you see it come up again, and again, and again....

Anyway, just my two cents. I love VTA but I can see where these guys are coming from.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:12 PM   #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus2010 View Post
Seems pretty easy to turn the above two postings into arguments FOR raising the mah hour limit.

I can hear future VTA racers all over the country saying:
"Please eliminate the mah limit. Everyone is going bigger and soon I won't be able to get good cheap used batteries that fit the rules anymore. Nashracer was my connection, but now the darkside has seduced him and he won't help me out anymore! "

The practical reality is that the market place is changing. New (and very inexpensive if purchased used) products are becoming available that are outside of our rules only because of what appears to be an artifical constraint with no relation to lap times or performance.
lol...and so true...If not me RobK...lol...

but I see your point about wanting to use the same battery in different classes...but a 5000 will work in other classes as well...the fact that US VTA is established in 5000, why not get the other classes you and thers are running to put a cap on your battery....

can you imagine a racer winning Am 17.5 TC at Snowbirds with a 5000 35 c battery...that would be awesome?....it would show that a battery that 2-3 years old and a ton of cycles on it can still get the job done...well it did even after I was concerned with the fact that the 6000 6500 batteries were being used all around me...

but imagine if all the stock base classes had a limit..how much would us RC racers save?...think about how often a "better" battery is intro to TC and other classes?....every 2 months or less...and latest greatest wins titles...? right?...

Im picking, but if I had a 6500 65 Reedy Lipo, not only would I have TQ'd VTA but would had the extra POWER to win in the last few minutes.....double sided sword...

Robk how is the 3800?....nevermind....lol...Love racing you and 1st time Ive beat you in 4 years...Dave is next

Thanks as always to Eric and family...I think of the "Track" as a second home...You have been a great person and friend...thank you...cya soon

and to all the US VTA racers....this is the event you NEED to support...this is our Scale Nationals....I can say it along with the Southern Nationals are the 2 most important US VTA races of the each year. Other races are fine...but come show love for your Super Bowl and World Series

Battman
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:33 PM   #495
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also...if you have a BIG HIGH PRICED lipo...your local track will decide if you need to get a $45 lipo to be legal...

Point...If a racer shows up at Thunder Rc with a Rvtech 6000 and US VTA legal all over, we are not going to not let him race....but we will let him/her know what the rules are and that a 5000 lipo is needed to continue to race VTA, cause we race under US VTA rules...(not stepping on your toes Dirla)

also its easier to post here, but the masses of US VTA racers dont even post here...its more face to face...

dont send them packing...just teach....that if your ass can pay for $150 lipo for a even high priced class, you can lay out as low as $30 for a legal battery, for some fun..in VTA

get over the fact that its one lipo...ONE!!!...that will end all confusion....
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