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Old 12-03-2012, 01:26 PM   #3016
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I just stuck the fan on to make weight.

The big issue we have at our little track is motor discrepencies. I am trying to come up with a way to help out with the differences in motors. The VTA was created to create a level performance factor with the electronics and the rule do a great job of it.

We have shot ourselves in the foot however at our local track. We, like many tracks have an FDR limit to keep the speeds down. This poses a problem as the ratio is so slow that the small differences in motor power are amplified.

On other tracks, you can tweak the gearing/timing to the point where things are pretty even. At our track we use a 6.9 ratio which is slow...but fun. Everyone maxes out the timing on balistic motors and away we go.

There are a few racers whose motors can't quite equal the speed of the other motors and I think it is because their motor isn't as fast as others. I know it isn't setup and mechanically related cause when they swap motors the car gets faster. On track with no FDR limit you can adjust the gearing to compensate. Not at our track.

The FDR limit is easy to tech but lately after having many conversations with people about this issue I have started to think we need an RPM limit. I read a post a while back where they use an RPM box to tech everyones car and use the timing to adjust each car to within 100rpm.

Has anyone any experience with this? It would definately help take the motor out of the equation even more but would it create a tech'ing nightmare?

I have read that the SS motor can be adjusted but I can't find this anywhere. Can someone post a walkthrough on that?

I also found a noce wite up about usin an old mouse scroll wheel as a simple RPM tester, anyone have any better solutions?
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:36 PM   #3017
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
so is my LRP fan illegal?...this is what Im using on my TC6...and the other on my TC4

http://www.teamassociated.com/lrp/pa...ails/LRP82520/

Last time we had this discussion and the Novak heatsinks that replaced the ring came up, this was specifically asked about the LRP fan and heatsink. I do not remember now, but either you or him said this particular one was not allowed. The use of a heatsink at all was questioned, but for whatever reason, this one specifically was said to be illegal.

The whole reason of limiting batteries was to prevent people from going out and spending a lot of money. Now you put a $65 heatsink/fan combo on it? I guess I don't understand the "spirit of VTA" anymore... It really is about min/maxing and eeking every last ounce of gray area out of the rules...

Really considering making the VTA car something else. It really is turning into full on, who can spend the most money, spec racing. At least mod touring is limited by your own personal pucker factor, and not your pocketbook.

Please do not misunderstand me, this is not about how well your personal club does with VTA or wanting to change any rules. It's just the mentality of the VTA program that I started with a year and a half ago, is very different then the one today. I think it is ridiculous to spend $65 on a heatsink for a VTA car, but trying to regulate stuff like that is even more silly and borders on impossible. My real frustration is that people will spend $65 on a heatsink/fan for a VTA and then talk about how it is a low intimidation, low cost of entry class.

And for those who do not think a cooling unit matters...a cooler motor runs better and lasts longer. If you ever gear your motor aggressively enough to get into the 160+ range, you will notice a definite falloff in the powerband once you start cresting 140-150. If you can drop the operating temp 20-30 degrees (easily done with active cooling), it allows you to run cooler (helpful at any gearing) but it also allows you to gear much more aggressively if you so choose and still operate within a safe/well performing temp range of the motor. I use a custom fan mount just like the RSD with a 25mm fan. It drops temps ~20*. Absolutely worthwhile. The LRP is supposed to be good for something between 30-40*.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:41 PM   #3018
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Originally Posted by Mera'din View Post
I have read that the SS motor can be adjusted but I can't find this anywhere. Can someone post a walkthrough on that?
It is the same as the ballistic. Loosen the 3 screws on the timing side end bell and rotate. The difference is there are no markings so the range is rather difficult to identify.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:48 PM   #3019
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
very interesting thoughts on motor fan ect....

1. no contact with motor

2. any add on as long as the ring isnt removed

3. no fans or heatsinks

which makes more sense

I vote #2
I vote #1 because it makes tech-ing the motor while mounted in the car much easier. Add-ons can cover up the motor and make it difficult to visually inspect the motor.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:54 PM   #3020
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I havent made a real attempt to race now since the GORC race. Havent touched my stuff since I took it out of my Jeep. Id like to be happy about this class still but honestly really tired of all the questioning, arguing etc that goes on about this class. Its supposed to be about having fun.....and its not anymore. Ive talked to a few people about going and trying new tracks and racing tracks Ive already raced, even going to the far tracks for big races.....but its gotten so stupid with this class in general with all the arguing and whining, just not worth the waste of money/gas. Guess Ive about thrown the towel in on it.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:08 PM   #3021
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...but its gotten so stupid with this class in general with all the arguing and whining, just not worth the waste of money/gas. Guess I've about thrown the towel in on it.
I don't think people on this thread are whining or arguing, I believe that everyone just wants to have an even playing field in VTA races.

My experience has been different than yours. I stopped racing in the 17.5 spec Sedan class because it has so much arguing and whining going (mostly about what tire brand is allowed to be used). I have converted my spec sedan into a VTA to get away from all the drama of the sedan drivers.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:14 PM   #3022
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I don't think people on this thread are whining or arguing, I believe that everyone just wants to have an even playing field in VTA races.

My experience has been different than yours. I stopped racing in the 17.5 spec Sedan class because it has so much arguing and whining going (mostly about what tire brand is allowed to be used). I have converted my spec sedan into a VTA to get away from all the drama of the sedan drivers.
If the rules are followed and not questioned at every damn turn...it would be an even playing field. But always arguing for more more more. Its went beyond ridiculous.

Arguments about:

Motor size-Check
Motor Brand-Check
ESC ability-Check
Batteries-Check
Bodies-Check
Tires-Check
Chassis limit-Check
Heat sink and fans-Check
Driver Figure-Check


Rinse and repeat.

Im positive I have left some out. That is all it is anymore.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:20 PM   #3023
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Originally Posted by bertottius View Post
Well according to the rules "No modifications or optional parts allowed on motor can, endbell, stator, or rotor." Is the aluminum heat sink considered an optional part? Seems the rules are a bit vague regarding the heat sink. I would like to know the official rule on this because I'm looking to buy a cooling fan soon.
IMO, as long as the cooling fan does not require you to disassemble the motor to add it on (i.e. the fan does not bolt onto the motor) then it can be used. The chassis-mounted fan kits make no physical contact with the motor and they work great in our VTA races. The USVTA rules need to be more specific about whether the clip-on, bolt-on, or wrap-around heat sinks and cooling fan kits are allowed.
This is very simple. The USVTA Motor Specification rules say "No modifications or optional parts allowed on motor can, endbell, stator, or rotor. No cooling holes or other changes allowed to motor." So any add-on or optional parts that can improve performance (i.e. lower running temperature) of the motor is not allowed.

Done.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:44 PM   #3024
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Originally Posted by DontChangeUSVTA View Post
This is very simple. The USVTA Motor Specification rules say "No modifications or optional parts allowed on motor can, endbell, stator, or rotor. No cooling holes or other changes allowed to motor." So any add-on or optional parts that can improve performance (i.e. lower running temperature) of the motor is not allowed.

Done.
I kind of agree..
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:59 PM   #3025
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Originally Posted by DontChangeUSVTA View Post
This is very simple. The USVTA Motor Specification rules say "No modifications or optional parts allowed on motor can, endbell, stator, or rotor. No cooling holes or other changes allowed to motor." So any add-on or optional parts that can improve performance (i.e. lower running temperature) of the motor is not allowed.

Done.
I think that's another poor choice of words by the rule writers. In an effort to try and keep the rules short they left room for interpretation.

That line was added when Novak started the "Build a Ballistic" program and you could select a motor with options that weren't wanted in the class -- vented end bells as the prime example -- and was supposed to keep them and any future undesireable options out. Ballistic 25.5s need to be legal, but we want them to still be "on par" with the SS 25.5s so that rebuildability and future changes are the only advantage you get with a Ballistic. We don't want to end up with a situation where you can't compete with an SS because you have to add options to a Ballsitic to be competitive. If you can't do it to an SS than you shouldn't be able to do it to a Ballistic was, IMHO, the goal of that line. That is what I was told when I asked why Novak's heatsink that replaces the ring was also deemed to be illegal -- but it's not specifically called out in the rules either.

People "in the know" were definitely running fans and heat sinks before then and after then. Where I race we've used the ROAR up to 2 30x30mm fans rule. I, personally, stopped using fans because I would break them too often and a large clip-on, wrap around heat sink provided almost the same effect with no moving parts.

Hopefully this flare up will result in a modification to that section of the rules and not just die out with no actual rule clarification like so many of these discussions do. That, to me, is the really annoying part. Updating the rules whenever there is a legitimate question about the rules should be SOP but it doesn't seem to be. I understand the desire to have easy to understand rules, but I also know that in any form of competition the rules will be pushed and that the rules have to be updated whenever a gray area is discovered.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:03 PM   #3026
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Originally Posted by Flying Monkey View Post
If the rules are followed and not questioned at every damn turn...it would be an even playing field. But always arguing for more more more. Its went beyond ridiculous.

Arguments about:

Motor size-Check
Motor Brand-Check
ESC ability-Check
Batteries-Check
Bodies-Check
Tires-Check
Chassis limit-Check
Heat sink and fans-Check
Driver Figure-Check


Rinse and repeat.

Im positive I have left some out. That is all it is anymore.
Hate to say it Monkey, but that is all it has ever been. There were breaks to push a certain race or very rarely tech advice, but otherwise, that is all these threads have ever been. Right, wrong, indifferent, it is the truth of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DontChangeUSVTA View Post
This is very simple. The USVTA Motor Specification rules say "No modifications or optional parts allowed on motor can, endbell, stator, or rotor. No cooling holes or other changes allowed to motor." So any add-on or optional parts that can improve performance(i.e. lower running temperature) of the motor is not allowed.

Done.
Slippery slope making the jump you did to that statement. Soon you will be looking at a single chassis with no, or only specified allowed hopups, etc. Then you start running into things like the old Legends, water dipping motors and super secret bushing lubes, etc.

It really only takes one person who wants the win bad enough to start pushing the envelope and the whole thing can come tumbling down. We used to have very even racing back a year+ ago, and it was a blast. 30+ cars a night, smiles and laughs all over. Then the fast guys started getting faster, and then they started pushing the envelope. More gearing, dynoing motors, IR checking batteries. The class is far from dead, but it is not the 30 people and all fun times anymore either.

We just began running mini's, and I fear the same thing will happen. When someone starts putting you 2+ laps down in an "equal" class, feelings get hurt, and people start to quit or push the legal limits.

I don't know a solution, but the future of it frightens me.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:31 PM   #3027
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Default Wow... what a can of worms we have here

How far do we want to take it...

It will and always does get down to splitting hairs... for example

No Optional parts on the can or endbell, well my TC4 motor mount has a rather large heatsink built into it already. So can I use a custom motor mount that has a fan built into it or an aftermarket one? Are we going to limit modification to the factory chassis motor mount because it may offer a performance advantage... after all it is bolted to the motor... I have already had to modify the motor mount to allow for a larger pinion gear... this has increased the performance of the car... Is this legal... after all it is bolted to the motor...

I am intentionally being ridiculous about this but you get my point

Last I checked we are racing and some may race for fun but we all would like to win a race... Otherwise we would call it touring because we are just out there to drive around with each other...

A fan and heatsink can be had for under 20 bucks... so honestly we have already wasted more time and energy than it is worth just to discuss it at this point...

I personally do NOT feel that a 20 fan/heatsink is going to define who is going to win or lose a club race as the guy who is most likely going to win will do it with or without a cooling device. However if I can get the performance out of my motor and help it live as long as possible because of a cooling device than that will reduce my overall cost of racing... I know I can not be alone in that thought.

With that said, I really could care either way at this point... Lets just decide what is allowed or not allowed so it is clear to all.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:49 PM   #3028
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Originally Posted by JFuel11 View Post
How far do we want to take it...

It will and always does get down to splitting hairs... for example

No Optional parts on the can or endbell, well my TC4 motor mount has a rather large heatsink built into it already. So can I use a custom motor mount that has a fan built into it or an aftermarket one? Are we going to limit modification to the factory chassis motor mount because it may offer a performance advantage... after all it is bolted to the motor... I have already had to modify the motor mount to allow for a larger pinion gear... this has increased the performance of the car... Is this legal... after all it is bolted to the motor...

... With that said, I really could care either way at this point... Lets just decide what is allowed or not allowed so it is clear to all.
I agree. We are getting to the point where we are picking out the fly feces from the pepper. To heat sink or not to heat sink should be decided by local race director. Same with the cooling fans. Frankly I have not seen a VTA win the A-Main with heat sinks and fans all around the motor.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:53 PM   #3029
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It really only takes one person who wants the win bad enough to start pushing the envelope and the whole thing can come tumbling down. We used to have very even racing back a year+ ago, and it was a blast. 30+ cars a night, smiles and laughs all over. Then the fast guys started getting faster, and then they started pushing the envelope. More gearing, dynoing motors, IR checking batteries. The class is far from dead, but it is not the 30 people and all fun times anymore either.
This. Once you start modifying or bending the rules, its all over, because it will be always be something from that point on. The same thing happened in spec Slash classes, and the class eventually died out.

Start allowing motor heat sinks and fans, next it will be ESC timing, then tires, then bodies, then who knows. Its a snowball effect.

I agree with Jfuel, running one or not isnt going to dictate a win or loss at the club level. I just hate to see the rules start to get manipulated for the reasons stated above.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:15 PM   #3030
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It really only takes one person who wants the win bad enough to start pushing the envelope and the whole thing can come tumbling down. We used to have very even racing back a year+ ago, and it was a blast. 30+ cars a night, smiles and laughs all over. Then the fast guys started getting faster, and then they started pushing the envelope. More gearing, dynoing motors, IR checking batteries. The class is far from dead, but it is not the 30 people and all fun times anymore either.
This. Once you start modifying or bending the rules, its all over, because it will be always be something from that point on. The same thing happened in spec Slash classes, and the class eventually died out.

Start allowing motor heat sinks and fans, next it will be ESC timing, then tires, then bodies, then who knows. Its a snowball effect.

I agree with Jfuel, running one or not isnt going to dictate a win or loss at the club level. I just hate to see the rules start to get manipulated for the reasons stated above.
Every once in a while a VTA driver will come in and whoop everybody at my track. Then everybody questions what that driver has put in his car to make it go so fast. Most of the time the driver will let us inspect his car and he will be 100% compliant with the rules. A few weeks later the fast driver gets bored with VTA and moves on to a faster race class. Then it's all back to normal again.

My point is that VTA is a great class for new racers to get started. All of the regular VTA racers support the newest racers and help them get up to speed with the pack. Once in a while the fastest VTA drivers will graduate and move on to Sedan or 1/12 scale pan car.
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