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Old 09-06-2012, 10:02 AM   #1756
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I cant believe people are still trying to fix a machine that isnt broken. Back in 08 I never thought VTA would be what it is today. Out of all the classes, on and off road, I have ran, VTA is the most fun I have in RC. I too questioned the motor thing at 1 point but the more I ran in the class, the more I understood and liked the rules. Rob, Myron and the others behind the curtain have done wonders for this class and rc in general.

I just wish I could race more lol
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:08 AM   #1757
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I just started purchasing the parts to put together a VTA car. I went with a TC4 "Club Racer" chassis, my LHS ordered me the Novak Edge combo, and I'm thinking about the
'70 Challenger body. My hope is to participate in the Southern Nats next year (after lots of practice at my local track).
You should jump in now. Forget the practice. Dive in with the wolves. For real it will be a fun initiation.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:02 AM   #1758
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The rules work just the way they are. I have heard about classes going extinct because of too many rule changes happening too frequently. Let's learn from that history and just wait and see how successful the USVTA rules can be.
I cant believe people are still trying to fix a machine that isnt broken. Back in 08 I never thought VTA would be what it is today. Out of all the classes, on and off road, I have ran, VTA is the most fun I have in RC. I too questioned the motor thing at 1 point but the more I ran in the class, the more I understood and liked the rules. Rob, Myron and the others behind the curtain have done wonders for this class and rc in general.

I just wish I could race more lol
I am very new to R/C car racing and I have also heard stories of certain classes going extinct because the rules were not specific enough to prohibit using some new-high-tech gizmo that costs $200.00 and makes your car so much faster all throughout the track. USVTA rules are so simple that I feel confident enough to put a VTA together and know that I can travel to other cities (i.e. Nashville) and it will be "in spec".

I think that most R/C racers (including myself) are tinkerers by nature. So when it comes to rules, a racer naturally comes up with ways to "make it better" or "fix it". However, if what you're saying is true, and the existing rules are allowing the VTA class to grow nationwide, then I think it's a great idea to keep the rules just the way they are.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:12 AM   #1759
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I understand the idea of the spec ESCs when VTA started. I agreed with most of the spec ESC choices at that time. However now with almost ESC Manufacturer creating a "Blinky" mode, which is what all the OG ESCs were hard-wired to be in does it not make sense from both a competitor and tech standpoint to simply adopt ROAR Blinky ESCs as the approved ESC list? Eric Gillespie won the ROAR On-Road Nats with a 100% VTA legal chassis, including ESC. Others, including me, ran ROAR Blinky ESCs. At the end of the day help me understand how this doesn't reduce the cost to those on the fringe, looking to get involved in the class and still use equipment they may already have invested in for other classes?
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:36 AM   #1760
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You will have to forgive us if we are all a bit numb on this issue since it has been beaten in the same spot repeatedly. You do remember that Tekins first blinky release was not truly zeroed out on timing and still had some advance to it. I believe this is the main reason that any ESC with a port that can update the software will remain ineligible for VTA. I cant say for sure but I believe that USGT was born from the complaints about VTA.

" I can't run my 21.5 gear. What in the world am I going to do with all of this stuff?"
"The choice of bodies is too limited. Why won't you let me run the Pantera or the 2011 Mustang?"
"I hate those wheels. Can't I run Volks in VTA? How about Watanabe's?
"Why is the ESC list so limited? Why can't I run my Black Diamond or my Tekin if its on Blinky?"

The answer to all of this is go run USGT.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:45 AM   #1761
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Originally Posted by RCGaryK View Post
... help me understand how this doesn't reduce the cost to those on the fringe, looking to get involved in the class and still use equipment they may already have invested in for other classes?
I look at it this way. Let's just say that there are 2 groups of R/C hobbyists thinking about getting into VTA;
  1. "Newbies" who have never raced 1/10 scale 4WD on-road before.
  2. "Veterans" who have raced Touring Cars for a while and already have "blinky" ESCs.

From the "Newbies" perspective, they are just looking to get into the hobby to see if they like it or not. Some people say that VTA is a "budget class", but in all reality it costs just as much as any other Touring Car class. The attraction that VTA has is it's slower, easier to drive, and realistic looking cars.

From the "Veterans" perspective, they most likely have an older TC chassis just laying around collecting dust. They may also like the realistic looks of the VTA cars. So they say "why not" and give VTA a try. However the ESC and motor they have laying around in their pit bag is not one on the USVTA list and they don't feel like forking out $120.00 to buy a combo that is USVTA approved.

From what I observed over the last 16 months of VTA races that I participated in, 8 out of 10 VTA racers fall in the "Newbie" group. They started off in VTA to build up their driving skills. When they started building their VTA cars, they did not already own ESC's or motors. So they went shopping with the ESC/motor list from the USVTA rules. End result - we have seen at least 45 "Newbie" racers join the VTA class while only 11 "Veterans" gave VTA a try.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:48 AM   #1762
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I think it's more towards the people who already have ROAR approved esc's. The Hobbywing escs and tekins, etc... are all ROAR approved, but can't be used in usvta rules. Someone trying on road for the first time might have made a 17.5 sedan only to discover that it is way too fast to control. They would have to purchase all new escs and motors rather than just a new motor.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:48 AM   #1763
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If the dooms day theorists are right this will all be resolved on 12/21/2012 at which time a lot of blinking will be going on -

Last edited by Marv; 09-06-2012 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:20 PM   #1764
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No way do I want to lose a race because I didn't have the motor of the week. That's why I left 17.5 touring

I am kind of stuck on the blinky thing though. ROAR has a REAL spec for zero timing now and we could just force update someones tekin software or not let them race.

but then again VTA Works and has super close racing, but so does my 21.5 blinky F1 class
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:09 PM   #1765
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... but then again VTA Works and has super close racing, but so does my 21.5 blinky F1 class
Yes, F1 also has super close racing. So does USGT with 21.5. But I strongly believe VTA is much more durable and "Newbie-Friendly" than F1. I have tried both, VTA and F1 and I learned a couple lessons.
  1. In F1 racing, when my F1 comes close to another F1 our tires will touch and one car or the other will go airborne, flipping several times, and usually land on the wrong side in a wrong way.
  2. In VTA racing, when cars come in contact with each other they usually just bounce off one another and keep going.
  3. In F1 racing, when I break an F1 part (i.e. a front wing, A-arm, steering knuckle, etc.) the hobby shop has to special order replacement parts for me.
  4. In VTA racing, when I break a car part (i.e. Body post, A-arm, steering knuckle, etc.) the hobby shop has plenty of spare parts hanging on the wall.
  5. In F1 racing I cannot buy rubber tires, rims, bodies or wings from the hobby shop. I have to order all of them online stores like TQrcracing.
  6. In VTA racing I can buy all the VTA bodies, tires, rims, ESCs, motors, etc. from the hobby shop. They have all of them on the shelf.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:29 PM   #1766
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Originally Posted by snoopyrc View Post
You will have to forgive us if we are all a bit numb on this issue since it has been beaten in the same spot repeatedly. You do remember that Tekins first blinky release was not truly zeroed out on timing and still had some advance to it. I believe this is the main reason that any ESC with a port that can update the software will remain ineligible for VTA. I cant say for sure but I believe that USGT was born from the complaints about VTA.

" I can't run my 21.5 gear. What in the world am I going to do with all of this stuff?"
"The choice of bodies is too limited. Why won't you let me run the Pantera or the 2011 Mustang?"
"I hate those wheels. Can't I run Volks in VTA? How about Watanabe's?
"Why is the ESC list so limited? Why can't I run my Black Diamond or my Tekin if its on Blinky?"

The answer to all of this is go run USGT.
True, but you also need to remember that one of the approved ESCs (which will go nameless) also had a very limited update that provided a slight timing and boost adjustment to it. I sold my personal ESC with this feature for a very nice price to someone who wanted to use it to cheat. I ran it in Open so it didn't benefit me either way. I also understand that there were some issues with the original blinky profiles. That was over 3 years ago. At all the races that have adopted blinky has anyone ever really seen or heard of a "cheater" profile or something that looked blinky that wasn't? I really think the proof is in the pudding from the On-Road Paved Nats. The perceived advantage of the ROAR Blinky ESCs and Uber high capacity Batteries and C-Ratings just doesn't exist.

For me I am looking at it from someone who is trying to help get a local track off the ground. They love the idea of USVTA. So do I. But I cannot think of one good reason that I have seen with my own eyes in a variety of applications where blinky isn't blinky in the last several years. If it is all about the one case at Vegas, so be it, but after some time can you not make amends?
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:56 PM   #1767
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Originally Posted by RCGaryK View Post
True, but you also need to remember that one of the approved ESCs (which will go nameless) also had a very limited update that provided a slight timing and boost adjustment to it. I sold my personal ESC with this feature for a very nice price to someone who wanted to use it to cheat. I ran it in Open so it didn't benefit me either way. I also understand that there were some issues with the original blinky profiles. That was over 3 years ago. At all the races that have adopted blinky has anyone ever really seen or heard of a "cheater" profile or something that looked blinky that wasn't? I really think the proof is in the pudding from the On-Road Paved Nats. The perceived advantage of the ROAR Blinky ESCs and Uber high capacity Batteries and C-Ratings just doesn't exist.

For me I am looking at it from someone who is trying to help get a local track off the ground. They love the idea of USVTA. So do I. But I cannot think of one good reason that I have seen with my own eyes in a variety of applications where blinky isn't blinky in the last several years. If it is all about the one case at Vegas, so be it, but after some time can you not make amends?
You can always run ROAR-spec VTA instead of USVTA. Then all your local racers can choose based on their current possessions and/or future plans of racing at USVTA or ROAR-spec VTA events. You get the best of both worlds if you believe allowing blinky ESCs in is a benefit.

Unfortunately you also get the "benefit" of the ESC-of-the-week and motor-of-the-week phenomenom that some people will always fall back on. There will always be people that believe someone is faster than them because of equipment without regard to skill. "Joe beat me, it's got to be because he has a better motor/esc/chassis/radio than I do, so I'll go buy a new motor/esc/chassis/radio." Having a small set of equipment to choose from gets rid of the "chasing the equipment/never ending upgrade" for those who are prone to believe that equipment is more important than skill and practice.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:57 PM   #1768
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For me I am looking at it from someone who is trying to help get a local track off the ground. They love the idea of USVTA. So do I. But I cannot think of one good reason that I have seen with my own eyes in a variety of applications where blinky isn't blinky in the last several years. If it is all about the one case at Vegas, so be it, but after some time can you not make amends?
There is no need for USVTA rules to be amended. If you are trying to get a local track off the ground, and you want to race VTA, the local Race Director and Track Owner can make a "Track VTA Rule Set" that is based on the USVTA Rules with some exceptions that you see fit. That's exactly what my local track did one year ago and it works great. You can take a look at our local VTA rules by going here --> MHS VTA Rules.

We even have a unique "Newcomers Addendum" at the bottom of the rules which allows "newbies" to buy a RTR HPI Sprint 2 ('69 Camaro) and join in on the club VTA races.
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:38 PM   #1769
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You guys are tired of people bringing up the esc thing again , well its a two way street with your if it ain't broke don,t fix it bs. I guarantee if roar esc rules where adopted more racers would join this class. Same goes with the battery mah rule, if their is no performance advantage then whats the problem with allowing say 6500mah's? When changing from one class to another it sucks to have to buy new equipment ( i dont understand how all the if it ain't broke guys dont see this), it would benefit allot of racers and vta to allow equipment people already have.
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:43 PM   #1770
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Its about perception. If a newbie racer thinks he is being beaten because the fast guys have this big of battery, or this speedo, or this brand motor, they are more likely to be frustrated and quit. They will not be happy they spent this much money to start, only to "think" they bought the wrong stuff. And if you tell the the price of a new LRP ESC, 100C 6500mah battery and motor, they wont buy ANYTHING to start with. (You can use a older 100$ car, but you need to put 500$ worth of elctronics in it to see if you like it)

Now if they are getting beat by the exact same equipment, they will be far more likely to work at their driving lines, set up and consistancy to become one of the fast guys.

Let face it, we should encourage as many new comers to the on-road side of things and help grow on-road.

I was brought over to on-road strictly by VTA racing. I have since moved on and only run USVTA on occasion, but this class, its rules and simplicity was the attraction. We have plenty of ROAR spec classes, and open classes. VTA is what it is because of the rules it has had in place and there is no reason to change that.
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